To sum up the discussion, basically the fact of the matter is reiatsu matters.
Remember that swords are their own spirit, so they have reiatsu as well, so in fights its actually a combination of zanpakuto reiatsu + owner reiatsu.
Which is why some people get confused and think that reiatsu doesn't matter when a seemly "weak" character defeats a "strong" character. It can be explained by zanpakuto's reiatsu.
Reiatsu "matters" but if someone has high reiatsu it doesn't equal a win; that's pretty much common sense.
And wait.....are we now insinuating that the kenpachi fight wasn't plot protected? If so then wow.
Both reiatsu and techniques play a role in deciding the victor of a match. We all know that someone with a monstrous amount of reiatsu will overpower their opponent if they have less (i.e. Ichigo, Kenpachi, Aizen). It is natural for a Captain-ranked Shinigami/Vizard or an Espada-ranked Arrancar to overpower any opponent who is weaker than them (i.e. VC, Fraccion). They have more experience and are typically stronger in all areas of combat.
When the reiatsu difference is not as grand, it mostly depends on the technique(s) a character uses. For example, Yumichika has effortlessly defeated Shuuhei and Charlotte Coolhourne (both instances, he was overpowered by his opponents) just by using his reiatsu-draining Shikai. Another primary example was when Kurotsuchi had replaced his organs prior to his fight with Szayel Aporro. Hadn't he evaluate the battle beforehand, he would have probably lost.
Luck and interference also play a role; hadn't Shinji come to bail Ichigo's ass from his second fight with Grimmjow, both he and Rukia would have died. The same also applies for the many times where Ichigo could have been killed in the Soul Society if it weren't for the protection of his hollow mask. Hollow interference has actually helped Ichigo defeat both Byakuya and Ulquiorra; if it weren't for the hollow, he would have probably lost/died.
Information, techniques, luck, all of that play a role in a fight.
Ok this convo is over. As I said 5 hrs ago on the prediction thread I just meant someone with considerably higher reiatsu against someone with a respectable level. Of course common sense would tell the average person that if someone had a zan comparable to tousens or aizens they will slaughter no matter the reiatsu of their opponent. But because it hasn't been objectively illustrated in the manga you guys will simply argue me down using ur own broken logic; so I gave you guys the benefit of the doubt. And yet ppl are still ignoring the hypothetical situation I've already illustrated and still talking about puny reiatsu vs yama level. I'm trying to have an intelligent debate and people are labeling me as a fanboy and ignoring my examples idk what else to say yo.
Go back to the post if u wanna know who was disagreeing with you bro
well, Uryuu defeated Mayuri and then lost to Szayelaporro who then gets bested by Mayuri in the end.
or Ichigo having trouble fighting Dordoonie after the SS arc and Vaizard training, but manage to come to a draw against Kenpachi and Kenpachi would've cut Dordoonie down faster than he did Tesla. plus, in my opinion, Kenpachi was toying with Nnoitra on the fact that he's taking on Yammy now in his release form and has yet to unleash his full power.
as far as the so-called "powers" go, it's all part of the story and how it goes. there's nothing traditional about Bleach compared to other mangas. for example, in my on assumption here, Ichigo is technically the "strongest" character in Bleach because Kubo has already written out that he has unlimited power, but the problem is (as many people have mentioned already years ago) he has a hard time controlling the usage of his powers.
when, Ichigo finally learns to do that he'll be on par with the general commander or even stronger. Aizen may be powerful, but his shi kai is what gives him a simple advantage period. without that alone, he'd be a little easier to fight against.
i think Shinji's shi kai can reverse space around him when he attacks or is attacked and i can't wait to see him use it. i think it's similar to what what Ragenzi from Vampire Hunter D (1985) did when he fought D for the first time.
p.s., Grimmjow to me was the only "real deal" espada out of the whole damn group, could careless what his rank was, he was bada$$ and he proved it.
Yes I remember that 1000 seat level reiatsu was said by ME. I later recanted it because of reasons I stated prior and people continued with it as though the hypothetical situation was still in effect even though I changed it.
Furthermore, I agree with the kubo comment that's wh it was a hypothetical situation requiring common sense and deductive reasoning rather than objective proof cuz there wasn't any given. Someone with weak reiatsu defeating someone like kenpachi in a bloodlust battle? Of course! He's in the dome; he's stunned his head is lopped off swiftly. Reiatsu level dodnt have any impact inside tousens dome so where is this comig from that it will?
Really now ... the truth is somewhere at the middle. I think DARK's post sums it up best. Any battle outcome or event can be explained through the basic mechanics of the manga. There are soooooo many variables in a bleach fight that it's really funny to hear plot-kai or whatever. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone (I've been biased too), it's just that we don't wanna see it because we all have our favorite characters and hate it when they lose.
Here ... read this again ... a really good post ... nice one man:
PS something ON-TOPIC ... so we won't get yelled at or stfu-ed by some wanna-be moderator )Originally Posted by DARK
Regarding the fight of the week, Koma vs Tousen. What I love about this fight is that it could go either way. Yeah, Tousen definitely has the upper hand, but Komamura could get some wolf-form based power-up or show some kind of wicked TECHNIQUE of his own ... or simply Yamamoto could butt-in and roast him.
Last edited by locke002paul; December 09, 2009 at 08:51 PM.