what piss me of is that as people dont undestand the complexity of a manga than they say that the other is better.
i dont have any problem saying that i like more naruto than OP but i dont say that Naruto is better, cuz both are great. both have a ton of fans and both entertain alot the people that are reading it.
and what i dont like is seeing people giving stupid reasons for saying that OP is better like
" OP doesnt have holes "
when i read something like this it really piss me off, cuz people dont understand that the stage that Naruto is currently is in a much more advantage stage that One Piece is.
Naruto has much more behind it at this stage. One Piece has almost nothing.
And the only conclusion that i can take for this is that these people that give comments like this never read Naruto cuz if they did they would know that they cant compare OP and Naruto using that and that just piss me off.
but i dont agree with people comparing Naruto and OP using the fact that maybe naruto can have some plot holes or not cuz Naruto stage is much more advanced than OP one, probably OP isnt still at part 2 so we cant compare both. cuz Naruto as much more behind than OP does.
Josl, good post there, really good.
So true.Originally Posted by Josl
hmm, if we dwell into this than I rememebr interview where Kishi stated that he had whole story planned, from the beginning till the end, but while the series progresses he sometimes makes changes, either due to his own new idea, or because of the editors. I don't remember Oda to being harassed by editors, but by all means I'm not so much into it like into Naruto thingy, so I may be wrong.Originally Posted by Josl
BUT I agree on Kubo..
Well, if Naruto will be Hokage or not is pretty independend from the actual plot actually. Even if he doesn't know that yet, it doesn't tell us anything about the planning of the plot (apart: It's Shonen, it has a guaranteed happy end x_X)
i'm going with naruto, but after pain assault, i think naruto's episodes is full of fillers
but i still like it anyway.
Either you don't read one piece at all or you dropped it some point or you just plainly don't see it.
I'll give you some examples, The Marineford arc and everything leading up to it, how every characters play a role and the death of whitebeard leads to a change in the era, changing a lot of things in the entire OP world for the next 2 years.
Another one, the slave trading at shanbondy, from there on and maybe even earlier on with the fishmen, one piece has gotten darker. It goes into deep waters and explore various story elements that we don't see in Naruto.
Now Oda is connecting the story back to the fishmen.
Something that Kishimoto never gotten to,
he introduced the 7 swordsmen of mist quite early in the story, but got to it during the war, and they are already dead but Oda is pulling an entire arc here about characters he introduced so many years back.
Like someone said, Naruto have a lot of potential. Kishimoto just never got to exploring them like Oda, or maybe he couldn't.
One Piece always managed to ties everything up and connect the characters into one big plot. I laugh when people call One Piece childish when it deals with matters like a corrupted government, slave trading, sad childhoods, killing of a crewmate, racism and pirates, actually being pirates.
That is what we call an adventure manga, that is why one piece sells.
Criticizing OP's plot is a big big mistake, sir.
Please, Naruto is not equal to luffy. I don't even know what you are comparing here. I can tell you something though, OP villains are better than Naruto's. The villains actually have development, and I'm not saying one or two, I'm talking about a lot here.Quote:
Whereas in Naruto, a organization as strong as Akatsuki got two of their members wiped out in a single arc (Hidan/Kakuza) I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but the villains have no development.
The only one I can think of is Tobi and Kabuto, but no, Tobi has been planning things from the start, so he doesn't have development.
Only Kabuto? Yes, only kabuto. I ignore Sasuke, because instead of development, he turned into a character that almost every one hates.
What message are you talking about here?
It depends whether a villain NEEDS a development, or not. You're just saying that a villain WIHTOUT any developments is worse.. just because. If Hidan and Kakuzu <referring to your example> had huge fanbase even though they haven't got any developments at all doesn't mean they were badly done. Also, usually villains serve to give development to other characters, which Naruto manga does in this example: Hidan was a primary source for Shikamaru's character development, maturity, whereas Kakuzu was a primary source for Naruto to dwell into "bridge" thingy <not to mention he served as a tool to show FRS in action >Originally Posted by zeltrax225
Ehh, just because Sasuke character is loved or hated by this or that ppl doesn't mean that its a bad written character. NO. It proves that the character is really were constructed if "its" <in this case: him> can give such diversity in opinion among the manga fans. So your statement about not having development on him because EVERYONE <where did you get this?> hate him is just some kind of.. you know. And no, he had a development, a serious one unlike many other characters.Originally Posted by zeltrax225
But Naruto have most of their villains waste their potential when they have so much room for development.
If you're trying to say Hidan and Kakuzu are good cos they are dead, what about the various resurrected villains?
I'm pretty sure they have no development and is put there just for being the troops, but if you're fine with that, I guess it's your own opinion.
Yeah, I'm sorry for putting down Sasuke like that. Sasuke is well constructed, well constructed to be hate. I'm not sure about everyone but I've been there and done with the sasuke haters, they are alot and it takes some amount of writing to make him so hateful. So I'll give the manga credit for that.Quote:
Like you said "unlike many other characters", so why not?
Why isn't Neji, rock lee, tenten and other members given development? Instead they weren't doing anything in the manga most of the time.
In return, we get all kinds of development from Sasuke that makes many people who read it hates him.
I'm not in anyway criticizing Naruto or anything, I'm just against people who think One Piece plot is not superior to Naruto's.
OP villains are worse than Naruto villains. The one thing that I like about Naruto villains is how "human" (except for Hidan and Kakuzu, LOL) they are. You actually FEEL for the villains. I can give you a LONG list of how great their character development were before their deaths. (man, Kisame was my favourite Akatsuki death) They're not just villains, simply beings with their own views and way of life. As for OP villains, they're really boring, if you ask me. We NEVER get any development from them. Their purpose is to only get beat up by the main character. THAT'S really boring.
As in "potential" you mean powers, right?? nope, no way. Skypiea and TB arc was really the worst EVER. Does Oda HAVE to prolong the fights even more than necessary?? Naruto villain's fights aren't too short and yet not too long. Just the right amount and they're all extremely well balanced. And I'm not talking about power levels. I'm talking about the length of their fights.
For character developement:
Just to throw in a thought: is character developement a sign of quality for a Shonen? I mean, what age groups are OP/Naruto/Bleach aimed at? Would they still be able to aim at the same age group when they would contain deeper characters and more complex developements?
This might be a little weird insertion here, but perhaps it's a point worth to differentiate: How good is it to an older reader, and how good for the prime target audience?
Personally I see Naruto beeing most advanced in this field. It makes an effort to deliver a background to almost every important character. I think this makes it more interesting to older readers and more educational to younger ones.
@Newkerzy: I don't know the exact source, I guess a data book or something, but iirc Kakuzu and Hidan had a background added to them, or at least Kakuzu. He was send to kill the first Hokage, although everybody knew it was impossible, obviously failed, returned and was severely punished/imprisoned for his failure. Even though he was loyal to his village, he became angry about that, escaped and stole that secret jutsu which changed his body to this wire-stuff, to take revenge.
A generic background, but a piece of developement.
Last edited by Roflkopt3r; January 30, 2011 at 04:59 AM.
Well the way shonen mangas usually 'utilize' the 'potentials' of their villains is by giving them seperate arcs, which are basically short stories themselves, connected by some generic plot threads. After an arc is finished they are hardly relevant or remembered, or have any kind of impact over the next plots. If they are popular, they might reappear as allies or recurrent foes. Of course one or a few big boss will be there. In short this is a recepe for a plot driven work where characters are introduced and developed to make 'entertaining' plots. However since naruto is a character driven manga, meaning the point of the whole story is to show the evolution of one (or two) character, once a villain is met his influence can never be erased. It'll linger on the characters who have defeated/met them, and since this very change-of-character is the focus of naruto instead of any plotline...the impact of the villains are much higher. Their potential is not measured by how much plot he has delivered, but by how much influence he has left on the characters and readers. This may not mean much quantity of plot juiced out of the villains, but it means much quality to make it understandable how they affect the other characters (and readers). Orochimaru, the 'wasted' villain would be a good example to consider to understand what i'm saying. If one is to consider 'character development skill' the second one scores much higher, while the first would score higher in 'plot and thrill' department i think. Overall i'd say it takes a better writer to be able to write in the second way.
Very easy to understand form and simple storylines, rather simple characters, huge highlights on everything that could be surprising to avoid confusion. Childish protagonists. Colorful, fantasy, a lot of fighting (in a very unbloody way and with few casualties). The good side wins.
This applies to all three.
i believe we are deviating from the original thread. so just to end it would like to add that you are right in the sense that a manga in shonen magazine need not be of a childish nature but generally that is how it has been. having said that i believe that mangas like OP, FMA, Naruto and Bakuman to name a few have improved not only the way shonen mangas are written but they have changed the audience for the better.
so i think sometime in the future we would be able to say thats is a deep, dark,philosophical and insightful shonen manga with awesome battle scenes and it would be a rule rather than an exception