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@Rofl: that Hidan-Kakuzu thing was actually a pun if you get my drift. I already know they were given a bit of background. It's true that we didn't get a bit of flashback about them like the others did, which is a bit of a shame. But I think we'll get some more development from Kakuzu in the war, like Sasori did. As a matter of fact, the only reason I support ET is because of the HUGE potential character development. Kishi is incredible when it comes to character development. Even Haku and Zabuza got a bit of development even after 500 chapters.
Without spoilers: yeah, you're probably right: they are put there just for being the more advanced enemy troops. Still, you're forgetting that in Kishi's view he put them to have more development from the other side, that is good guys. For someone it will be really lame, for someone really cool. I think it can't be judged objectively and it depends whether you like sth like that or not. Also, like Newkerzy spotted, some of the zombies will have further development, aka Haku&Zabuza or even Sasori.Originally Posted by zeltrax225
Because their development ended or even wasn't supposed to be? Besides, Neji's development will occur in this war sooner or later - for Kishi it was only at this moment that Neji can have one <without spoilers you probably know what I mean>. And please, don't compare one of the main characters with one of the side characters having or not having developments ^^'Originally Posted by zeltrax225
Also: there are ppl who hate Sasuke, and love Sasuke, and some in-between. Just look anywhere on Naruto forums and you will find this or that faction..
Let me rephrase the question. Is the following for you development or not?
A young pirate, let's call him crocodile dreams to be the pirate king. He travels the sea and makes a name for himself. He encounters Whitebeard and get's completely crushed. After the loss of an arm and a scar in his face he understands that there are powers far beyond his level and decides to give up on his dream. He tries to take over a country and find a legendary weapon but this plan fails because he encounters our heroes and gets beaten again. After that he finds himself once again completely crushed and doesn't even want to try again and so he ends up in Impel down. Then he hears about the war and thinks this is a good chance to kill whitebeard, the one who destroyed his dream. Our Hero on the quest to rescue his brother crosses his way again and they decide to team up to escape the prison. At the war he tries to kill whitebeard but fails. A lot of stuff happens during the war what I don't want to mention. After the war he finds the resolution to try it again. BTW his story isn't over yet
So is this development or not? So it's not never is it?
Let me ask you another question. Have you noticed the cover stories?
Usually Villains get a cover story where a lot is explained about them and those from the coverstorys come usually back to the story.
Want to bet that I can write something like the story above for nearly every OP villain?
I will give you a list of characters that either got or will get their development later and this includes a circle development like the one from Wapol.
So out of the Head: Hellmeppo,Gin,Kuro,Jango,Fullmetal,Buggy(??might be discussion worthy),Hatchi,Arlong,whole Baroque works especially Mr3,2 and 0, CP9, Enel, Hancock,Moria and all the villains to come.
That's for me a lot more than Naruto even has.
Second of all. I don't know what he means with "potential" but I mean potential. The potential of the Villains is WASTED. Which basically means the characters themselves are wasted? One example would be again Danzo. So much potential for storylines but none of them used.
Another example would be Kisame. Can you show me a page that is supposed to make me hate him? I mean he captured some tailed beast with whom I as a reader have no emotional connection with. What else has he done? Stolen Information? Fought Bee? Maybe I have forgotten something. Could have happened. I like Kisame as a character. Villains are supposed to be hated. You are supposed to celebrate the fist in their face, their death or defeat.For me Kisame is the perfect example of a villian who is there just to get beaten up.
Like you can see in every age group OP leads by far.
The reasons are many but one of the reasons that you stated:
Others but not limited:
Last edited by Josl; January 30, 2011 at 11:03 AM.
If it only was about popularity and if there was a consensus that popularity equals quality, then this thread would've been over right after the opening post and there wouldn't be a reason for a discussion.
Last edited by Josl; January 30, 2011 at 11:36 AM.
the latest chapters say everything:Op is too slow and has got a lot of things that makes the manga not perfect. of course Bleach is worse than them:Naruto is the best.
Villain wise Kisame Has nothing on Arlong.
Development Wise Kisame Has nothing on Arlong.
And yes Naruto will Appeal more to a Mature audience, But only art wise One Piece Talks about more mature subjects that Naruto wont go into.
Naruto is only good right now because its @ a really crucial point in the series.
just like how one piece was like 10x greater then bleach & naruto when it was the WB vs WG war
Last edited by ArtieBoy; January 30, 2011 at 01:45 PM.
Actually naruto is not good at the moment. Its exciting. But its been better at other times, for example when naruto hyperventilated. I'm saying this totally seriously and waiting solemnly to be ridiculed.
2. Covers aren't really enough for me. It's only told from a third-person view, not the character themselves. What Naruto outdoes OP in this regard is that you are able to see the character's POV with your own eyes. It's as if you're the character itself.
3. True, Kisame and some others weren't built up enough till the end. But do you SERIOUSLY want a huge-ass LONG explanation of their life?? this is Oda's weakness, he sometimes focuses on the build up of the characters too much that it sometimes derails the story for a bit. In Naruto, we usually get a brief flashback about their lives and yet Kishi masterfully plays them out so well that it defines their character in one fell swoop. (I might agree with you on Danzo, though)
4. As for the big fights in Naruto, it's just about the same with OP. First, the characters are stacked with the odds in the enemy's favour, but the characters get through it. Just that Kishi doesn't prolong it anymore than necessary. (Hidan-Kakuzu was kinda bad, though)
5. As for Kishi not having the guts to enter border-line mature stuff, I'm thinking it could be because Kishi's art style is so realistic that if anything border-line seinen was drawn, he could get a huge amount of backlash from parents in Japan. So I could understand that.
Let’s go through the typical story telling of Oda.
First he presents a villain. He makes him you (as a reader) NOT like him. He makes you hate him through the things and evil deeds he has done to character you actually like. Then the villains get beat up.
Until here your argument is kind of legitimate but it looses all it’s truthfulness at the point the cover stories start. Once again on the example of crocodile:
First the Baroque Works tries to free them from the Prison but Crocodile doesn’t feel like it:
After that event we learn about his dream:
Then we learn why he didn’t break out:
He tries to kill Whitebeard:
We learn why:
Thinks happen during the war and after the war we learn that he had a “scar” and that the scar is now healed:
Your average intellect reader can understand what the author tries to tell them and his story doesn’t end here. So the reader can understand him (which basically means FEEL) and he got a lot of development.
Once again: Villains aren’t supposed to be liked. They are supposed to be HATED: So Oda presents his villains in that way and gives him development after they are defeated.
He uses all of his character to a maximum and usually doesn’t waste them in any way unlike other mangaka.
POV flashbacks are reserved for people who you shall understand/like/ sympathize with or for characters that are going to die to make their death more dramatic.
POV flashbacks got basically every Strawhat because your are supposed to like them and to understand them (FEEL them).
Then Flashbacks are used to make you understand conflicts and make you like the characters involved with them.
Then POV flashbacks are used to make a characters death more dramatic and make you fell them for you. In OP the death of Whitebeard would be a good example.
Kishi has the habit of getting rid (killing) character without ever using them to their full potential. Killing is good when you have used a character to the full potential or you are using it to progress the story in the best possible way but it is very bad when the character had so much potential for storylines or character development. An example of a good death in Naruto would be the death of Kaku and Zabuza (which got ruined for me after they got summoned)
Another would be the death of Jiraiya and a few more. For bad deaths or character wasting: Kisame. I didn’t feel sad because he died. I felt sad because he was wasted. Danzo and few more would fall in this category.
I’m terrible sorry that for you cover stories aren’t enough but for 95% of the people it is.
I neither need nor want long explanation of their life. I want them used to their fullest potential and built up as villains.
Once again back to the whole maturity discussion even tough I don’t feel like I should
Most people will agree that the first impression you got from OP is childish. The overall feel of Naruto speaks also for Naruto while the overall feel of OP 80% of the time is happy go.
I don’t think that here is any conflict.
The two things that decide (at least for me) if something is mature or not are the themes that are presented and the Drama. Both have them and both are appealing to older audience so who is more mature is not discussion worthy.
What might is discussion worthy is which of those both Manga is “deeper”. The criteria for that are for me pretty much the same as above but for me OP wins in that comparison. Because in those 20% it isn’t happy go it portrays a wider range of themes and presents the drama better.
really good post. i did not notice this development of croc since i dont pay much attention to the cover stories. my respect for oda went up a notch.
but there is one thing that i have to nitpick on. namely that even though croc has been developed i no longer see him as a villain. i know this might be premature and oda might make him into a villain. right now there are only two people that i consider truly to be villain akainu and blackbeard.
out of which akainu is lawful neutral. his actions dont really feel evil. as far as blackbeard is concerned i dont consider him evil cause till now all he has done is attack pirates and killed marines. this is part of his job profile anyways - fight pirates and kill marines.
thats why for me atleast the villains in naruto seem better as compared to one piece. in naruto i hate them (madara kabuto), pity them (kisame kimimaru) despise the system for creating them (haku) but in one piece i have not felt such kind of emotions with respect to the villains. mind you it might not be the problem with one piece itself but rather my preconcieved notion that pirates are anyways bad people so why feel for them.
By personal opinion is that in OP the villains are not so impressive, because the fine line between villains and goodies is very-very thin...even thinner than in Naruto
However I agree that the villains in Naruto have a more personal approach to them in their characterization than the ones in OP...except Arlong probably and that mad guy(forgot his name) the leader of CP
Last edited by benelori; January 31, 2011 at 06:11 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
In OP the villains are villains as long as they are not beat up.
You can’t tell me that you didn’t hate Arlong. Even if for some reason you didn’t hate him the author tried everything in his power to make him hated by the audience. This applies to the most main villains (Croc,Enel,Lucci) during the arcs. Only AFTER they are defeated they got development. I did already mention Croc so this time let’s go with Arlong.
Typical racist villain gets beat up.
Hundreds chapter later we learn that the sun tattoo that everyone had was a symbol of freedom and that he might have been a slave. Now you could already pity him but I bet that there will be a flashback of some characters and that we will get the confirmation that he was a slave. He just can’t return because that what he did is unredeemable unlike Crocodile.
Villains are portrayed as villains as long as they are villains. Another example would be Mr.2. First make the readers not like him by killing(beating) up a child and after that he becomes an ally. CP9 can also be pitted and Moria (all of his crew got killed by Kaido, got lazy and fat afterwards with a big scar) as well. After they got beat up they get development and become either allies or rivals but the hate is usually gone by that time. This is why OP villains are for me the better ones. As long as they are villains they are not liked and after that Oda makes us(readers) understand them and they become likeable.
Wow josl...after reading that story about crocodile, i'm getting worked up to read OP. One 'but' that nags me though is somehow it seems more like a popular character being brought back at times for the sake of making plot, and the plot not actually moving to show the development in the character. If i sum up things like that, quite a few other characters from different mangas may seem to have good development, whereas in actual manga it wasn't really well-conveyed or focused. I'll try OP again in any case. Oh about kisame, he wasn't wasted. He showed a side of the shinobi world. That is all its needed to satisfy me. It would've been way much easier to write an arc on him and one for all the named characters, but what's the point really? This way narutoverse seems to have better integration and cohesion...not just random arcs after arcs.
About themes and maturity and depth stuff, i dunno about one piece, but naruto is much advanced considered that its a shonen. Judging from the 1st 250 chapters of OP, luffy's way seemed pretty much similar to naruto and many other shonen heroes. Thing is Naruto is the one shonen that actually dared showing that such ways are pretty much impractical in life. Starting from power levels to interpretation of the characters...almost everything varies from reader to reader in naruto. Even such a common theme as 'destiny' is ambiguous in naruto, and readers would debate on and on about what exactly it means in narutoverse. Its not a mere difference on liking and disliking a character, as its in OP. Or take a 'wasted' character sakura...her confession was crazy stuff. Was she a bitch,or was she one with a golden heart? This is why i value characterization in naruto highly...just like real ppl...you can't just have one single opinion about them, or any theme of this manga. Who was right hiruzen or danzo...no way to tell for sure.This is depth to me. Naruto has much grittier tone really.
Last edited by ashher; January 31, 2011 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
If I offended you or anyone else with this comment I apologize.
Kids who never have seen peace and kids who never have seen war have different values
Everybody likes three dimensional characters. Oda does make his villains seem two dimensional with a few exceptions. Only after they are defeated he starts to make them three dimensional. OP has a lot of bad villains, especially underlings of main villains get often the short straw but it has also a lot of good hated villains. Naruto has also a lot of good villains but some characters just seem so wasted, especially when you would like to see more of them.
I think you have misunderstood me. I mentioned Jiraiya as a good used character and a good death.
The water 7 arc is loved by the whole OP community and is somewhere in their individual top3. This arc goes from 319-365 and goes over in big fighting arc. If you don’t like OP after Water 7 then you will never like it.
A lot of people have stopped reading at skypia and started again successfully with the water 7 arc:
But truthfully I don’t know if you are belonging to those people. Your taste is anti mainstream with which I mean you like what most people don’t like. An example would be that you like the naruto hyperventilated while most people don’t and a few other things.
There is also a lot of deep stuff in OP like the question:“ Is it ok to kill 100 people to protect 1000?" and other ones.