those 2 parts in the title are kinda related as if u r of the opinion that naruto is a retconned series then u also prolly think sasuke to be the main character and vice versa.however u can discuss them separately and have 2 different opinions them.(i see it has become a 2 in 1 thread basically)
i personally believe that none of them are true.here are my reasons: (pasted here from 'interviews with kishimoto' thread,also thanks to seventhpath for bringing up the topic):
if the whole uchiha and senju thing was 'pulling out of ass' as u mentioned,then why it doesn't contradict anything that has been said before?
i see u r avoiding the most obvious point that kishi had a general idea about this by not talking about the stupid motive itachi gave for the mass killing of his own clan which clearly went against the previous details we knew about itachi from sasuke's memories(like how he took pride in uhihas being the superior nins who forms the police force).also there were left many gaps at that time,when he told sasuke to go and read the hidden uchiha scroll.it was never made known what actually happened to Shisui(itachi didn't answer to sasuke about him,goddamn it,itachi told clearly that he killed all,so why make him keep silence if kishi didn't have further plan?).also remember how at the very beginning of the second part sasuke's eyes were compared to madara by kyuubi.
madara's revelation and uchiha-senju story not only completes this gaps,but also gives further explanation about bizuus,particularly about kyuubi which was merely left as a natural disaster according to folk-talk.
the only problem that u've pointed out is the supposed change in madara's and 1st's power level.by this i can only guess that u r talking about minato being given impression of the strongest kage.
about this 2 things should be noted:
1.minato had a jutsu that actually guarantees at least a draw in a man t man fight against any opponent.
2.madar's level was never actually been made clear.it was assumed that minato>1st,and 1st>madara.all we have come to know is madara managed to defeat minato,but that does not mean minato wouldn't have been able to defeat 1st.
there has been plenty of occasions in naruto that shows clearly that kishi by far a matured writer than to use such childish shonen crap like power-level.that is why naruto fights does not maintain geometrical hierarchy like if a defeats b, and b defeats c,then a will defeat c.rather the outcome depends on their ability,the knowledge about opponents techs and a lot other factors making them much more realistic.
about naruto being the main character,these are the reasons:
1.we get to follow his details,training and day to day life.
2.we get to see how naruto feels and changes in him more closely than other characters.
3.naruto has an ideal (pacifism)that is very much against the flow of the nin world,whereas sasuke's actions are very much in accordance with it.so its not a problem to see what further actions sasuke's gonna take,and its nothing exceptional in ninja world.but the problem that the manga concentrates on is how naruto is gonna make his moves about these problems that he faces to bring out the solution according to his belief which is very exceptional in nin world.
4.as u like to say pacifism is merely an ideal that was added later,i request u to reread the manga from the start.there is nothing naruto started with except his unbending will and guts.he acquired his nindo from haku arc,came to make friendship painfully slowly during chunin exams,then in the fight against gaara finally understanding that (learnt from none other than sasuke)that going solo isn't strength,rather friendship is(something other shonen heros have in-bulit in them,and makes me hate them for such lame characterization).and in fight with sasuke,it was made clear that this is not enough.naruto needs to grow up further.
also i might add here that there was a very potent panel with jiraya talking to naruto about his ideals and how naruto promised to fulfill that goal without explaining jiraya's ideals.so it was clear that was something naruto will eventually learn and that is pacifism.this is another feature that many other shonen heros have built in them (or at most given a flashback to supposedly explain).just like any other philosophy,pacifism isn't a fruit that u eat some day and become a follower,it is essential to have the gradual build up of personal characteristics and traits similar to naruto's to enable someone to understand and follow pacifism.so it wasn't dropped from the sky,but came to happen gradually and was hinted at much earlier.
Last edited by ashher; January 03, 2010 at 03:01 AM.
Naruto is the main character. This is most obvious through the title of the manga. Sasuke is a main character as well and though given almost equal importance, as a whole, Naruto is the main main character.
Naruto is the protagonist of the seires, Sasuke is the antagonist. However, Naruto is the main character.
Naruto had the spot light for all of Part 1. Thus far, Sasuke and Naruto have split time in Part 2. Sasuke is being set up as one of the biggest villians, he needs to be developed. That does not however, mean he has become the main character. If Sasuke wasn't part of this manga, sadly, Naruto's character would suffer.
i think you are right that the whole uchiha and senju thing was planned from the beginning
Danzou for example,eventhough he only appeared in the second arc of part II seemes to be planned from the first chapter when you look at the excellent post from zerocooldx here:http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showp...88&postcount=1
From my point of view I see both Naruto and Sasuke as main characters because their stories complemented each other. They are like white/black, day/night, good/bad, love/hate: both are needed to keep a balance in the world and in this case, of the manga. For Naruto to be the greatest hero of all the time, he needs a greatest villain of all the time, who is Sasuke.
Naruto and sasuke are the main characters but naruto is the protagonist, but sasuke drives the manga far more than naruto. Naruto gets neglected a lot. but i don't think its to the the point naruto should be renamed, because naruto story was the opening for the manga and will be the ending for the story. unless Kishi decides to say to hell with it, let me kill naruto to allow more room for the plot, but its 2010, paranoia should be put aside
Kishimoto doesn't have 100% say in his manga. In recent interviews, he has admitted that he makes things up as he goes, that he didn't have a detailed idea of what he wanted to do at the beginning of the series, and the fact that SJ editors have influenced the flow of the story.
Perhaps the best illustrations of showing evidence for retcons lies in the inconsistancies between Part I and Part II.
- Example 1: In Part I, Oro was intended to be Naruto's archnemesis. Did that development ever occur? No. While we're at it, what happened to Oro's grudge that he held against Minato and what about Minato's two unknown teammates? Both plot elements were silently abandoned as was the idea of making Oro Naruto's archnemesis.
- Example 2: Sharingan -> "Copy-Wheel-Eye" -> "Do-Whatever-You-Want Eye". Kishimoto stated in both manga and databook the Sharingan's "true power" is to copy stuff. Since chapter 140, the Sharingan has discovered it's "true power" twice, which involves things like genjutsu killing you in an instant, spawning blackholes, instigating black fires, summoning ethereal warriors that make you "invincible" for a short timespan, bijuu control, etc. etc. Oh, and EMS is indirectly hinted at granting its user a form of "immortality".
- Example 3: Danzou. Danzou REALLY wants to become Hogake. So, why didn't he appear in the Sannin Arc? Simplest answer: He wasn't planned when Kishi wrote this part of the story. Kishi wouldn't have only need a few panels to mention/showcase/whatever Danzou, but it never happened.
- Example 4: Senju Clan is da strongest. Wait, what about the Uchiha Clan which for the past eight years and 400 chapters had been stated to be the "strongest" clan? Clearly, a major retcon that Kishi used to develop the NaruSasu rivalry to ensure Naruto's revelence to future plot developments.
- Example 5: Sasuke's plot. Originally Sasuke's plot was just one of several subplots in Part I. In Part II? It's the main plot.
I can list a few more examples, but it's pretty obvious that like Inuyasha, Ranma 1/2, and Dragonball, major changes were made to Naruto's plot years after the series began. So, in short, yes, Naruto is a retconned series, and while Naruto is the focal character, he is no longer the main character. Sasuke is now the protagonist since all major plot elements revolve around him and he's been the driving force behind the series ever since SRA.
Last edited by Franckie; January 03, 2010 at 10:13 PM.
For my opinion on the subject, read my signature
I'll keep it simple:
-Is Sasuke the main character now?
Yes, he is.
-Is that a bad thing?
No, absolutely not! As of now, Sasuke is far more interesting that Naruto: He's really shining with all his battles, everytime, all of his battles are just, great. Naruto, on the other hand, has become a 0 charisma character, static and not adding anything useful to the story.
To sum up, Naruto is the male version of Sakura.
Would you like to read a story where Sakura is the main character?
Then do the maths.
From the point of view of terminology...naruto is the main character and protagonist and has sasuke as antagonist...the title is still unchanged and considering the whole naruto series naruto appears more...so it's clear naruto is the main character...
I think it is a question of whether Naruto was developed as one would expect or not...I don't blame the people who want Naruto to be energic as in part 1 or to have many jutsus after part 1...from shounen/action manga point of view he should have many jutsus and the plot should be more concentrated on him...what he should get Sasuke gets...he gets all the fights, a hax eye with hax techs...
But I like when a manga(other fiction as well) steps a bit outside genre boundaries...
That's why when Kishi said he will focus on bonds in part 2 I was glad...from this point of view emotional development of the character is important and the relationship with others...and in this area naruto rocks big time, so a second time he is the main character...
Sasuke is getting all the fights and jutsus and that is a spectacular thing, but the fights are not the issue anymore, unless ones expectations are limited to genre boundaries I mentioned earlier...I'm not labeling anyone, don't get me wrong, but the big picture is limited to ones expectations...that's why there are so many opinions, cuz people expect different things from each character...and we didn't even get the end of the Naruto, so this debate will be as long as the manga...
Last edited by benelori; January 07, 2010 at 08:13 AM.
I'm getting bored of this discussion...
Naruto is the Main Character!!
Who will be the one to save the world?
Who will be the one to defeat his rebellious friend?
I said it once, and I'll say it again, it's only normal to see Sasuke a lot, because to make it interesting, we need to see Sasuke going deep into evilness and becoming really really powerful, so that the hero's task (Naruto's task) seem hard or almost impossible.
It's the same than in Berserk.
Sasuke is not retconned as the lead. In order to tie up certain plot threads Kishi has needed to give him quite a bit of screen time recently. First the Itachi fight happened. Itachi's death opened the question of what is Sasuke's purpose in life, his story was so tied to revenge that there wasn't much to do with him. So Kishi retconned Itachi as a tragic hero (a ghastly plot turn in my opinion) and turned Sasuke loose for more revenge. Now Kishi has to steer the story so that Naruto and Sasuke can come into conflict at the end of the story; thus member of Akatsuki, fight with Killabee, raid on the Kage summit, Danzou attack. Things like this needed to be done for Sasuke to convincingly be put on Madara's side when the war started. Naruto's presence was not needed for this turn of plot, so he was not there. Besides, Kishi said Naruto would not be the focus for about two years. He's still the lead, only to much of him would be detrimental to setting up the final arc. When the war begins, Naruto will get the most screen time again.
well, it hurts to say that, I don't want to see naruto again as the leader, or as the main character.
Seriously, I don't find anything useful anymore on him, he's just a common, ordinary character, without the "feeling" seen in part 1.
IMO, if Sasuke keeps getting the main role, I'll be satisfied, because Sasuke now is far more interesting than Naruto.
And I'm really worried that, once (if) the focus return the Naruto, that the manga will downhill, this time, badly...