Akatsuki targeted Naruto, thus jiraiya took him and trained him...this was just half of part 1...part 2 rests entirely on akatsuki vs. every character including main characters...when I said world I meant everyone, from Konohamaru, to sasuke and naruto...
We see Sasuke's adventures...try to understand that a manga chapter doesn't have 1000 pages...and war was introduced together with Sasuke's adventures...heck the Kages didn't even had time to get home in their own villages, and yet U say Sasuke's adventures and U demand war preparations...
Last edited by benelori; January 14, 2010 at 10:34 AM.
Demand war preparations? Hardly - it's clear the war will just be the background on which a character will be expanded upon - most likely Sasuke.
You see benelori - the grandeur of the background does NOT make it the main plot.
A story detailing the adventures of some people during world war 2 does NOT have the war as the main plot, merely the backgroung. The comparably insignificant adventures of these people will form the main plot.
It's the same with the war and Sasuke.
And yes, a manga chapter does not have 1000 pages - and Kishi decided what he puts accent on, how he wants to use the limited number of pages (in order to show Sasuke/Uchiha adventures).
Last edited by SeventhPath; January 14, 2010 at 10:43 AM.
I see we're going in circles...do U think I'm talking the off-screen akatsuki vs bijuu?
I'm talking about Akatsuki who opposed Sasuke, who opposed Naruto, the leader destroyed Konoha then fought Naruto...oro was part of akatsuki need I say more...rasengan was thought to naruto in order to counter akatsuki not sasuke
UR right that the background is dominated by Akatsuki and it's war preparations, but Akatsuki is present in the main plot as well, and akatsuki was Naruto's first real enemy...I'm pointing out facts in the manga...it's a coincidence that Akatsuki is grand enough to influence the background of the plot and the main plot...
Details count U know and when it comes to terminology debates they shouldn't be left out...I know I'm not covering all the issues myself, but from UR posts I get the feeling that I cover more issues, from plot definition, to character types and their definitions...don't get me wrong...I'm not saying U don't know them, maybe U know them better, too...but UR posts cover points which are conveniant only to UR train of thoughts, which would be okay if we would be talking about opinions...but this became a terminology debate...sorry if I misunderstood UR posts though...that could happen, too
UR points regarding that WW2 example are good...and I agree. but it doesn't happen in naruto
Last edited by benelori; January 14, 2010 at 10:56 AM.
Well, Akatsuki were the bad guys in part 2, at least. Antagonists meant to give the main character(s) a challenge. The plot didn't focused on them in any other capacity.
About part 1 - Naruto was, ideed, the main character then.
About part 2 - until 2008, Naruto could be (arguably) called "main character"; but he's a static main charcter, whose actions are fixated only on Sasuke. In 2008 (Sasuke's year) Kishi decided to make Sasuke the de facto main character and, since then, he was consistent on this point. Since then, the manga focused on Sasuke's actions, thoughts, etc; everything revolved around him aka he's the main character.
His actions were not focused only on sasuke...there was gaara...so sasuke=gaara....so the Naruto's attention was divided into 2...akatsuki and sasuke...and he wasn't that static...I mean he fought and underwent great changes as well
Then when have 2009 where Naruto vs. Pain and the kage summit were in highlight, not forgetting Sasuke's revenge of course.
Also Sasuke's year which are around 50 chapters aren't nearly enough to develop a consistent story...just check out how many years this manga has behind it...so 2008 and 2009 aren't enough to judge upon a character being main or not...
Also part 2 didn't start in 2008...and I don't know whose emotions have more screentime...cuz when we talk about emotional development, Naruto is way more developed than Sasuke
Last edited by benelori; January 14, 2010 at 11:29 AM.
The rescue Gaara arc - the first act of part 2 - is where Naruto acted the most like a main character - but he still obsessed over Sasuke.
After that, all Naruto did was whine after Sasuke, train to try and get Sasuke back, fail to "rescue" Sasuke.
In conclusion, in Part 2, until 2008, Kishi barely developed Naruto's character - that was probably because, at that time, Kishi intended to develop Naruto later.
However, Naruto became less popular in Japan, until, in 2008, on his own or at the advice of the editor, Kishi decided to make Sasuke the main character.
Naruto popularity polls: http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=355859
That's why, 2008 is full of retcon that transformed Sasuke's (probable) initial final villain (Itachi) into a saint and gave Sasuke a new final villain (Madara). Essentially, 2008 laid the groundwork for making Sasuke the de facto main character.
Since then, the manga focused on Sasuke.
There are two exceptions:
1 The Pain arc - this is probably because Kishi already planned in some detail (before 2008) Pain, the original final villain of the manga, and the Pain arc. Rather than completely cutting Pain out of the manga, Kishi turned him into a secondary villain.
2 Kakashi's half a year in 2010 - confirmed in the 2010 interview. That's because Kakashi is popular in Japan, too, these days (more popular than Naruto).
Recently, Kishi even changed his mind about the romantic subplot and declared unambiguously that Sakura loves Sasuke and NOT Naruto, deciding to throw away tens of pages of development that all but proved the contrary.
Kishi gave a lot of answers about the "main character", Naruto, in the 2010 interview: http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=576454.
He established that Naruto's humiliation from the last half a year was not there to develop Naruto, to bring him out of his obsession for Sasuke - indeed, Naruto's personality and motivation won't change until the end of the manga, when the Naruto Sasuke battle will take place (if it takes place - who knows, maybe it will be an amiable encounter).
Also, Naruto will stay in the background in 2010, being a standard secondary character - in 2010 the main plot will be focused on Sasuke, then Kakashi.
Also, Kishi clearly established that Sakura - the main heroine - loves Sasuke, Naruto being just a friend: "Naruto is close and she worries about Naruto as well, but as expected, she [loves] Sasuke".
In other words, Kishi doesn't even pretend anymore that Naruto is the main character.
Sasuke, as of now, clearly is the main character - and he'll remain so for the rest of the manga. Madara is Sasuke's final villain.
benelori, you say "cuz when we talk about emotional development, Naruto is way more develoed than Sasuke". However, this "emotional development" is in fact "emotional stagnation" - Naruto obsessing over Sasuke, repeated ad nauseam. And it's the only "emotional anything" Naruto will get.
Dude UR quoting URself over and over again and it doesn't help the discussion at all...
Part 2 started in 2007...it was the rescue gaara and the search for sasuke, but sasuke appeared just for the last battle, which wasn't even a real battle...so even in the search for sasuke arc, sasuke was mostly absent...
2008 was mostly Sasuke's year that's correct...trapping oro, killing itachi, the battle with the 8tails...but U shouldn't forget that in 2008 there was jiraiya's fight as well, naruto's training in sage mode and a part of the pain invasion...
2009 was divided in Naruto vs. pein, the kage summit and the aftermaths of the summit...so ther attention is divide between Naruto and Sasuke...therefore, there's not even a hint that Naruto is second to Sasuke or that Sasuke is definitely the main character...it will be kakashi's year right at least half of 2010...then U should remember that Naruto will train as well...so even judging from screentime it's not that obvious that Sasuke is the only main character...not mentioning Naruto's character is more and better developed from emotional point of view...also there are the terminology arguments I posted which I see U like to ignore if UR just writing the overused post which is correctly bulit up from logical point of view, but it starts from an opinion...and that's the opinion of Sasuke is the main character and will remain that way
Sorry, but I can't get more objective than this, so read this post as the last in our current discussion
Last edited by benelori; January 14, 2010 at 12:16 PM.
I quoted my post simply because no convincing counterarguments were presented.
As for the arguments you presented in your last post - They are already negated by my quote (and by the rest of my signature).
And the opinion according to which Sasuke is the main character is Kishi's, too.
Man, if what you're saying here is that last post is true, it explains a lot. Yes, I agree that even without those interviews to confirm it, Kishimoto has handled Naruto so poorly that Sasuke ends up as the de facto main character. Which is sad, cause I liked Naruto a lot better.
No matter how I look at it, the parts of the series starring Naruto are always hastily done (Kakuzu and Pain's sloppy ends come to mind), as if the author couldn't wait to go back to writing on Sasuke. And s if that wasn't bad enough, Naruto's irrational and masochistic obsession with Sasuke stretches suspension of disbelief to breaking point and beyond.
Meanwhile, even if I don't necessarily like him as a character, I can tell Kishi-sensei is really paying attention to Sasuke.
My post quoted only a part of the contents of my signature.
If you are interested, you are welcomed to read the rest.
Naruto is the Light Hero
Sasuke is the Dark Hero
We've seen that pattern many many times.
Usually, people prefer the Dark Hero, because we like people that kills and goes for revenge instead of peaceful people who don't want to hurt anyone.
But, in the end, the Light Hero is usually the one that ends up doing the right thing and bringing peace.
It will be the same thing here.
Naruto is the Child of Destiny and he is THE ONE that will bring peace.
So, Naruto is the Main Character.
Sasuke is the Second Main character, even if «the plot revolves around him».
Anyway, the way I see it right now, the plot will soon revolve around Naruto.
Soon enough, he will be the only Jinchuriki left and we have a huge clue that Danzou is after him too.
So, with Akatsuki and Danzou after him, the plot will once again revolve around Naruto.
Anyway, I stay firm on this... Naruto is the Main Protagonist...
PS: Why the hell isn't there a poll here!?
We need a poll to decide who's the Main protagonist between Naruto and Sasuke!!!
OK, even if Naruto is the main character in the manga, the one who acts as such is Sasuke.
I'm saying: Naruto is an action/fight oriented manga, not a babysitter for a crybaby. Right now, what's more interesting? Sasuke and his fast paced battles, or Naruto and his endless crying, emo thing?
Please, I'm not saying anything about time screen or anything like that, I'm saying about their attitude. Who wants to see the main character like that?
If people finds Sasuke more interesting than Naruto (japanese people), then Kishimoto will write about Sasuke, period. If he refuses, then his editors will make him do it. Manga writer is just any other job, they'll make what's more profitable.
If people insist to see Naruto again, getting all the focus, then good luck .
Unless Kishimoto decides to really put some effort on Naruto's character, Sasuke will keep as the star of the show(and he deserves such position).
Not to mention that many people are already beginning to "believe in Naruto" to find the answer to world peace. Not for the answer though, but for the "promise" that'll he'll find one in the future. This doesn't really make the main character struggle much. And there's no way we are going to have chapter after chapter with Naruto behind a desk speculate philosophical ideas. No. Naruto will do it. That's all we need to know. The prophecy is enough to tell us it will happen, so don't worry about how it will occur. But wait a minute. This answer also is connected to saving Sasuke. So Kishi and Co. say, "Yes, we will do that. Let's focus on Sasuke and how he's going to hate harder and harder as the manga continues." So essentially yes, Naruto is the lamest main character there is, because well, he isn't the main character anymore. His character is contingent upon Sasuke. So therefore, Sasuke is the driving force of the manga, where Naruto will continue to chase him until they both meet a brick wall.
It's a shame, but the result of this made Naruto become less developed. Sasuke is developed more often, enters many battles, and is favored by the creators of this manga, (not necessarily by Kishi, but possibly his editors). He's not developed in a good way though, but he's just more developed, more than any other character. But as SeventhPath and Gottheim stated, this isn't going to change, and it doesn't take a genius to figure it out. It's quite sad that Naruto has to enter another long training session to become equal in power with Sasuke, who becomes stronger with every fight. It should have been that way with Naruto as well. Experience is essential, and Naruto never gets it.
So basically, I'm not expecting much. I was full of hope once the Pain Arc ended, that Naruto was going to gain control of the manga. This never happened. What is there to expect for this year? This year is for Kakashi, while Naruto is side-lined to train. Oh and more Sasuke.
but since pain arc ,sasuke and naruto both sucked equally (which was necessary for both of them).
still i really don't understand why ppl will expect naruto to be in control just after pain,because pain said that naruto will only find even more difficulties and he hadn't even be able to find a definite way in pain arc.
also sasuke is just hot-headed nowadays and he needs to controk his hatred,like he did against itachi.
u r right and wrong.
it focused on sasuke because it was necessary to portray his descent in darkness.
but u missed the parts where naruto grew,he did that without fights(does this sound too strange that a shonen character can be developed in such way?).
he met RK,understood that kakashi was right,got hammered by madara,sakura and sai.
so he is doubting his nindo and whether he can successfully bring 'peace'.
this part was necessary for naruto's growth and hinted by pain at the time of his death.
this is no static development,but if static means without fight to u,then u right.
also kishi said that after danzo sasuke's way will be cleared.that prolly means he doesn't have much to develp in sasuke anymore,as his dogma and powers are established.
on the other hand he also said that this series will go on for a long time still.so the one that still has got unrevealed past,more to learn,more jutsu to discover,a way to find for peace and at the center of the upcoming war is naruto.with two major villains targeting at him.
so logically we can expect kishi to concentrate on naruto after kakashi affair.
also even since pain arc,though concentration was given to sasuke,i can hardly see a series of events started by him.look at the kage meeting,kages were discussing about akatsuki and mostly madara,very little about sasuke.then it was madara again who forced the events.
it was rookies who took action because of sasuke.but even in 1st part,naruto wasn't what caused oro to attack konoha,the three sanins to fight,or the chase after sasuke.
so if naruto is considered main character at that time,then why not now,specially since pain,madara and danzo all the big 3 are directly targeting him?
i didn't see you giving any counter arguments to that.
also everyone has been trying to attract ur notice to the fact that none is denying that kishi has given a lot of concentration for developing sasuke recently,but that was because it was of utmost necessity to make him the one to complete naruto.it wasn't to make him the protagonist.
Last edited by ashher; January 17, 2010 at 11:10 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
"this series will go on for a long time still", "he will concentrate on sasuke,then kakashi.but why should that mean that he won't give naruto anything?"
ashher, that's a hope based on no objective fact - Kishi will concentrate on Naruto because the manga will do this and Sasuke will do that, despite the fact that everything Kishi says and does strongy indicates he couldn't care less about Naruto anymore.
Even after Sasuke will complete his "dark side" journey, he'll still be the one getting the spotlight (after the Kakashi intermisssion). You know why? Because he'll be busy offing Madara, while Naruto will be busy crying after his mancrush.
And 1.5-2 years (real time) are a really long time for any manga to go on.
"where naruto grew"
Naruto's emotionally static, ashher - whatever happened to him, the only change is that he's even more obsessed with Sasuke.
"what is the basis of this assumption?did kishi said this in his interview too that 4th war would be 'background'?"
Kishi did everything but say this directly - 2010's plot, at least, won't be affected by the war - and thinking that Naruto will get some focus in 2011 in conjuction with the war is dreaming (not a bad thing, but quite unrealistic).
"then it was madara again who forced the events" "it was rookies who took action because of sasuke"
No, ahher - it was Kishi - you know, the guy who decides what the characters do and who turned Sasuke into the main character.
"in previous year he also didn't mention pain arc,instead just said that he will concentrate on sasuke." "basically that means after pain arc right?"
2008 was Sasuke's year (not 2009)- in the 2008 interview, Kishi said he'll concentrate on Sasuke, Kakashi, then Sakura (sounds familiar? - I'll give a hint: 2010). In 2009, Kishi said he had to cut something he wanted to do in 2008 (because Sasuke's development took too long) - that would be Sakura's part.
And in 2008, the manga followed his statements to the letter - with the above mentioned exception.
Kishi didn't say he'll make the latter half of 2009 Sasuke power-up/look cool time. He just did so.
"well the very post with which i started this thread was counterarguments against ur points about this being retconned series"
I said CONVINCING counterarguments.
Look, ashher - you are free to read my signature and then present counterarguments, EXPLAINING why they negate my statements. And by counterarguments I don't mean hopes based on thin air or comparisons between an action manga and Shakespeare.
Last edited by SeventhPath; January 16, 2010 at 02:46 PM.