I think this is very easy to see in modern times. Take the number one male tennis player and the number one female tennis player in the world. Top athletes of both genders both train extensively daily. In terms of experience and effort there is probably minimal difference. But you will find that in a serious match the woman will get destroyed. I use tennis as it is a sport that is agility and skill based - and it is one of the very few sports which does allow for mixed gender matches. Do you know the tactic that professional tennis players are taught in mixed doubles? Hit it to the woman, that's because even in this sport one gender maintains an advantage. In fact, the only real reason it can be mixed gender is because her only needing to cover a small part of the court nullifies some of the disadvantages. The truth is, this is the same with the vast majority of physically straining sports.
Too many of you are falling back on what this skilled woman can do to this less skilled man. Well yes, a professional female tennis player will probably beat a semi-professional male player. But considering noone is (or should) question the value of training and talent in any individual I don't see why this matters.
As for the argument that this is a fantasy manga - well, yes. That is true. But every single work of fiction is derived from reality in some way. Some more then others. - And I offer a counter-argument to this. Perhaps the author wasn't making any statements about reality at all and since this is a purely fantastical manga derived from his own imagination perhaps in his world, completely separate to our own, women really are just weaker without delving into real world politics at all. Unlikely, perhaps, but it is an identical argument to "This is a fantasy manga so therefore anything can happen."
Last edited by Boris999; May 09, 2012 at 12:32 AM.
And yet Kishimoto made a woman the strongest, physically speaking, character of the manga ( Tsunade ) so really this whole gender dinstinction simply isn't there, not only that but it is a fictional manga, again, and apart from few characters we don't see actual physical abilities as being all that relevant, Gai and Rock Lee aside.
For example, Sasuke's combat style can be used by a girl, no problem:
extensive use of shunshin ( a jutsu, not physical speed ) for high-speed movements, a magic eye to spout flames and everything, and incredible finesse and skills. Stamina isn't even a problem, since Tsunade, being a woman herself, has enormous chakra reserves.
Same with Jinton, Muu's combat style, hell even Itachi's or Minato's!
A woman in Naruto can punch a giant monster in the face and kill it with a single blow ( Sakura vs one of Animal Realm's summons ), how many characters from the Rookie 12 can say the same?
Chouji, and only thanks to his deus ex machina Aizen mode.
Kishi made a good job in portraying that females do not are inferior to men, maybe not in numbers, but in quality. Even in the Madara pwnage, Mei and Tsunade are doing way more than A and Gaara, and as good as a job as Oonoki.
You can say that Kishi may be socially awkward, and thus hasn't any idea on how a woman's mind work and everything, and there I would agree, but in all honesty it can't be said that he is a sexist because Tsunade risponded to Madara's taunt or because mostly males are characters of relevance.
At least he doesn't use women characters only as eye candy, but tries to give them relevance.
I quite willing to admit a man IS physically stronger than an equivalent woman, and generally taller as well, which is indeed why many sports are gender divided. What I take issue with is the idea that those physical differences are all that significant in a true combat situation (like a knife fight or a hand to hand fight where people know what their doing and mean to do harm). One person being bigger and stronger than the other doesn't mean as much as people tend to think, fighting is not like playing "tug of war".
When you apply almost any kind of weaponry to that equation that advantage suddenly means close to nothing. What establishes the victor tends to be speed, skill, and fearlessness.
As for the quantity and quality of female fighters in Naruto. I don't think there is much question that their are less strong girls then guys. There are a few decent ones Tsunade, Mei, and Konan was pretty good too and then a whole lot of nothin' on the tiers below them.
But the difference in numbers really isn't it what bothers me, it the way those female characters are portrayed that does.
Mei is strong but she's also completely obsessed with marriage; she's a walking biological clock. Tsunade, though strong, is pretty clearly the weakest of the Sannin and by far the most prone to breaking down emotionally, and Konan was very much a subservient hanger-on to Nagato and Yahiko. And so many female characters are like that. Kurenai went from jounin to harmless housewife in a blink. Sakura deserves an Olympic gold medal for patheticness. And Hinata seems like she's stuck always being the least capable Hyuuga around.
Any one of those I wouldn't have a problem with individual. I mean, there is a logical rational for each but when you add them all together what does it say?
Last edited by Jammin; May 09, 2012 at 11:01 AM.
Samurais. Ninjas. Legioners. Knights. Every army in history, armed with all kind of weapons and firepower. I'm not even going to bother and talk about fighting techniques, strategy, tactics and inventions. Almost everything regarding to warfare and fighting was founded and perfected by males. Mostly participated by males as well.
Why is that, do you know?
Mentioning sport is irrelevant, as it's governed by certain rules to make it fair for all. There's no term as "fairness" on a battlefield.
Last edited by IChallengeYou!; May 09, 2012 at 01:45 PM.
When a culture has a value like that it makes it extraordinarily difficult for women to have an equal chance at such things. Over the course of history there have been many extremely effective female warriors; when the opportunity was there. On the previous page I even told the story of Yim Wing-Chun and Ng Mui. Who created a martial art, parts of which are have been adapted and taught to U.S Marines to this very day. Some other names worth googleing would be such as Boudicca, Trưng Sisters, or Joan of Arc; if your looking for something more recent there were tons of female soviet snipers in WWII who were masters of their deadly craft.
I think the main reason you don't hear more about female warriors throughout history is the same reason you don't hear about effective black soldiers before about 1870. In that time period, it was thought black people couldn't fight as well as white ones and when one did it was dismissed as an aberration, or somehow shameful to talk about, unless they did something so spectacular it couldn't be forgotten.
Last edited by Jammin; May 09, 2012 at 03:17 PM.
No one is arguing that women can't be good fighers, or can't achieve great prowess in terms of fighting or martial arts. But the notion that a women, with the same experience and training as a man could best him when he is physically her superior is outragous.
This isn't a comic book or a movie. When you are physically beaten no amount of courage or fearlessness is going to help you when someone is crushing your throat or breaking your bones.
You speak of knife fighting. By virtue of a woman having less muscle on their body, a stab that could be fatal to a woman might not be fatal to a man ibecause the blade would have more mass to get through with a man than a woman. Or the fact that men are better suited to deal with pain than a woman from a point of actually dealing with it. not surviving it.
As for the manga and how Kishi represents females, I am hard pressed to find a significant male character that doesn't have character flaws outside of Minato.
Sarturobi, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Naruto and Kono are all shown to be perverts. Added to the sexist male sterotype that all men do is think about sex.
Asuma and Shikamaru to my knowledge are the only characters in the entire manga to smoke cigarettes.
All the psychotic characters in the manga? All males outside of MAYBE Anko.
Fact of the matter is all the characters in this manga have character flaws. Shikamaru was lazy, Chouji was shy and had no self confidence, Kiba was cocky, Shino was creepy and an introvert. The list goes on and on.
Last edited by Delbi; May 09, 2012 at 03:43 PM.
I'm talking about militaries, not your daily jobs. Completely different subjects, completely different outcomes.Quote:
Ah Jesus Christ. I'm well aware of every single name you've just said. This doesn't change a single thing I've said: what men have achieved in warfare has been on a completely different scale than the contributions made by women. It's just undeniable and there's no way to argue against that.Quote:
There were far more female pilots and artillerists than snipers, which let me correct you too, weren't tons, but rather singular digits.Quote:
It works this way. You compare:
1)How many men have contributed to war with their brains and bodies.
2)How many women have contributed to war with their brains and bodies.
Only facts, no theories. Use credible sources. Okay? Now, when you actually do that comparison, you'll see that the difference is more than in millions. MILLIONS. And now, I'll ask you the same question you so masterfully dodged the last time: why is that, do you know? Well, let me be the first one to point out a rather simple thing really...THAT number is the difference between men and women when it comes to warfare. When women are going to do the same kind of achievements as men did throughout all the years by dying, suffering, killing, and developing ingenious ways to kill and protect, on such a massive scale, only THEN you can try and equalize the both genders. So far it's nope.avi for every little argument against this enormous and well known fact, which has been written into stone for eternity.
Exactly, talk about double freakin' standards. It's fine for males to be portrayed as wild perverts, but it's not fine for females to be portrayed...as...uhh...as claimed by some, "weak". Now watch, as some haters are going to come in and say that Kishi is right about males being perverts, since their brain is made up that way blablabla...So therefore, it's fine. Just you wait.Quote:
I mean, the female characters I agree on, they are cardboard cut outs for most of the part, with little relevence to the story. In other words, they're annoying. But, how can one complain against this when this manga has been targeted for male audience mostly, and to be honest, the main plot of this manga is having a neverending shower of shit. There are so little likeable things left about this manga when it comes to plot development and characters (main characters, mind you), which are actually far more important than dealing with the "sexist" bullcrap.
Last edited by IChallengeYou!; May 09, 2012 at 04:51 PM.
Considering the way Kishi's portrayed female characters, at least early in the manga, he's not sexist. Instead of making them a domestic housewife or females to be protected constantly, he actually gave them a role and allowed them to fight and take up the front lines. Sakura was deemed to have the best chakra control and the first one who protected Tazuna. Even as his bodyguard, she was prepared to risk her life to protect him, which is far different from the current Sakura that went "NARUTO, SAVE OUR ASS!!"
The way Kishi portrayed Ino vs. Sakura also indicates he's not a sexist. They hit each other, gave each other their strongest punch, came up with good strategies, etc. Tsunade has never been made to look helpless either, not counting her fear of blood.
I just think Kishi screwed up by makin the manga too central around Naruto. Notice how Tsunade and Sakura began to rely on Naruto, as well as many others. Kishi focused less on characters like Neji, Ino, Tenten, and etc while he made Naruto overpowered and popular with some character development, while giving Sasuke some attention as well.
To be honest I generally dislike this sort of discussion. The issue at hand is that basically anything can be made out into being sexist in some form. I mean, we could easily argue kishi is sexist because naruto is a slob (remember the few shots we have seen of his room?) and he eats crap continually. Isn't it too stereotipical for men to eat unhealthy food and not be clean? Its almost like stereotypically it is a men's gender role to be a pig so that women can fulfill their gender role of being clean and healthy. We could also argue that kishi is sexist because most of the skilled medical ninjas in the series are woman. Are men in the manga so overwhelmingly stupid they are simply sent to die in the battlefield while the smart women develop actual brainpower and skill? Or do we assume there simply are less ninja women than man? Or that the dominantly female doctor profession has the maid status in the manga(which is sexist against both men and women considering the huge implication of sheer stupidity on male's part)? Ultimately this sort of discussion gets so absurd that seeing a mom being a mom or a dad being a dad or an exchange between their functions ends up being sexist.
On another note, there are a few interesting facts.
Men are physically stronger than women on average. Testosterone does that.
Women have higher tolerance for pain and are more sensitive to it. Men have lower tolerance for pain and are less sensitive to it.
Women appear to be more sensitive to colors and smells than men(which makes perfect sense considering that otherwise from a man perspective women just keep making up colors and smells on the spot).
Women are not as good at perceiving distances as men (which why on average women are not quite as good drivers as men... seriously)
Women are just as smart as men. There was a time when statistics showed that women did not do as well as men in math exams however over the years they have gotten to be pretty much equal.
Those are a few but there are plenty more actual measurable biological differences between men and women. In itself, pointing one of these out should overall not be considered sexist because they are objectively true and have been measured. It should be considered sexist when actual inferiority is implied, gender roles are actually enforced or the context has nothing but gender roles.
Or that Madara implies Hashirama Senju's abilities are significantly above Tsunade's?
He tells her she paled in comparison lol.
There were male medics when Neji and Choji were rescued in the aftermatch of the amazing Sound 5 VS Leaf 5 (Oh the good times when Neji wasnt fodder...)
You kinda missed my point here.... All I am saying is that basically anything can be made out to be sexist in some form, its just a matter of finding an individual occurrence and relating it to some stereotype or whatever.
Now, the following is not actually relevant to the point I made earlier but whatever. We never saw how any of them lived their daily lives. We only saw a glimpse of naruto's living quarters and we saw that he was a slob. We really have no reason to think of anyone else in any particular way. I was merely associating that single instance of naruto being a slob to the stereotype that men are filthy pigs and women are clean and healthy (just watch every laundry or cleaning utensil commercial ever and you will notice the stereotype I am talking about). Also, you clearly are incapable of reading the word "most" (note, there is not a blank space before this parenthesis). If you note, I said most of the skilled medic ninjas are women, not that all of them are. We did see other medic ninjas but generally they have been nameless and unimportant at large.
Just the fact that the best is male kinda makes how many others irrelevant.
Here you will find a lot of them are named:
Also, how many is ''most''?
Kiri is male, Kabuto, Hashirama, Sekka, C
For females there is Tsunade, Chiyo, Shizune but is Ino ''skilled''? MAYBE Hana... But I dont know if she has been shown to heal humans even.
Just to clarify some argument you are having here. I'm a biologist and I hope I can clarify for you the situation:
As occurs in almost every monogamic vertebrate, males are fitted to fight the individuals of the same species, because this is a requirement to achieve a good female: males have to compete with other males. Females, on the contrary, are focused on breeding and children's caring, and they aren't biologically prepared to fight members of the same species.
Now I talk as a naruto fan:
-The statement above doesn't matter in a fantasy world. Plus in naruto the strongest character is a woman (Tsunade) and the second strongest is also a woman (Sakura). So men "strenght advantage" isn't a valid argument anymore.
-Strenght isn't very important in Naruto, as the most strongest characters (Tsunade and Sasuka) aren't the best shinobis.
-Kishimoto is sexist because he doesn't include powerful/important/succesful women in his manga. Maybe he doesn't do this deliberately, but that doesn't matter. Was it too difficult for him to make Danzo, Shisui or Kimimaro as women? Those are just a few examples of powerful characters that could have been women without altering the lore, though kishimoto decided to make then men.
-Other similar mangas are directed to the same audience as naruto (Fairy Tail, Bleach). They all have very powerful women at the same (or above) male level. So the "audience argument" also fails.
Hope it helped.