Responded here http://mangahelpers.com/forums/showt...t=56597&page=4
Last edited by SeventhPath; January 16, 2010 at 02:31 PM.
I see your point and I have also read THM Nindo’s post about the solution to the first objective. Nevertheless, I do not think it will necessarily solve the problem. The main goal of forming a council of multiple nations is to unite against Madara’s forces and it is a direct response to the recent actions of Akatsuki and the declaration of war. Unfortunately, it does little to solve the dilemma of “how Naruto can bring peace to the whole Ninja world”. As Yondaime pointed out, as long as the current Ninja system exists, atrocious actions (such as Uchiha massacre or murder of Nagato’s family) would continue to prosper and there would be no justice that can be meted out to punish the offenders. Such injustice promotes feelings of hatred and revenge, which will then evolve to the cycle of hatred. Thus, in summary, I think the idea of simply forming a union of countries is not a very well thought-out answer. Solving the root problem necessitates the modification of the current Ninja system which I have explained in my previous post.
i dont agree with naruto's 3 goal namely of being hokage because i do not think that was his objective at all. dont forget that naruto at the start of the manga was about 12 years old and more than anything all he wanted was people who cared about him, people who loved him, people who respected him, people who acknowledged him and treated him as equal.
he saw these things in the third hokage and hence he wanted to become a hokage for him hokage was the means to fulfil his goal of people acknowledging him and respecting him.
that goal was achieved not in a single moment but over the span of the manga which is present in chapter 426 http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/426/13/
so as of now it makes little difference to naruto whether he becomes a hokage or not.
as of now the main ojective of naruto is finding an answer to the sasuke problem and fulfilling jiraya's and minato's dream. i think in the next 15 to 20 chapters we should have a better view of how the manga is going to progress with respect to the above objectives.
when you think about it you realize that both sasuke and naruto are in deep shit currently because of the burden of expections that have been put upon them by their respective loved ones who have passed away leaving their legacy to be fulfilled.
Well, regardless of whatever has happened in Part II, there is no denying that becoming a Hokage WAS indeed his objective which is supported by the Manga evidence.
IMO, being a Hokage is a whole lot more than simply people acknowledging and respecting him. Accountability and respesonbility for the whole village are the key characteristics of a Hokage. As of now, Naruto has nowhere accomplished his objective of becoming a Hokage. In short, he is not deserved to be one.
The objective was to become a Hokage. But he has not achieved it. Plain and simple. People giving him respect and acknowledging does not mean becoming a Hokage. Many Jounins are highly respected by people. That does not mean that they are Hokage. Naruto currently neither has any leadership skills nor does he fit to be a Hokage with his obsessing and chasing after Sasuke for over a hundred chapters. As I mentioned before, chasing after Sasuke is the worst strategy undertaken by Naruto even for the purpose for bringing Sasuke from darkness to light.
On the contrary, becoming a Hokage is highly important for him to gain political power for the process of transforming the Shinobi World.
Imagine Naruto has been working on his leaderships and other skills over the last 100+ chapters, instead of chasing after Sasuke. By now, he would already be a Hokage. He would also then have political power to influence events happening in the Ninja world including matters about Sasuke. Right now, Naruto has not accomplished ANY of his objectives. Despite his constant cries of "I won't give up", he does not even have the courage to think through things properly. For me, the word "courage" does not only imply "physical courage", but it also means "mental courage". Naruto's mental courage is 0%.
Naruto has not done anything that can positively work towards those "burdens". All he has done is mindlessly chase and chase after Sasuke without any strategy. I don't call it "working hard". I call the actions of Naruto "a desparate chasing by a guy in love".
i went back and re-read your opening post. i had misunderstood it initially. you are right in saying that it was naruto's objective to become the hokage and his goal was for people to acknowledge him. but now that the goal has been fulfilled the objective loses his relevance from the point of view of the goal.
as far as the other two objectives are concerned i am confused about the first one. like you mentioned it is too general to be called a objective and hence should rightly be called a goal. mroe importantly it is not even naruto's goal but rather a legacy passed down from him father and his teacher.
the thing is in part 1 naruto was a character who held a rather simplistic view of the world for him nothing was impossible nothing was unachievable because of which he made statements like
"if thats what it means to be wise i am happier being a fool" with respect to jriaya telling him to forget sasuke
"if you want me to do it how can i refuse" with respect to jriaya asking him to find peace in case he failed.
these two statements represents naruto's endearing quality to consider nothing as impossible. in part 2 naruto was brought down from his dream land and crashed straight into reality. he almost lost gaara which shook him to the core. his failure to rescue sasuke and in turn see him go more and more into the darkness. the loss of his sensai which although not his fault does not reduce his sense of guilt. his understanding of the messed up nature of the world thanks to pain.
its said the measure of man is his list of failures and his achievements after them. kishi is doing exactly that he is building stepping stones for naruto.
i believe we are at a point where the objectives are being slowly defined with the general concept of goal in place. like you i believe achieving world peace is a goal and not a objective.
naruto in the upcoming chapters must decide how he wants to go about solving it and thus we would have his objective in this regard. this is where becoming hokage could once again gain relevance as that would give him the best leverage to pursuing his goal of world peace
right now saving sasuke is a objective he definitely has; but i think it would become a secondary objective if kishi is serious about the 4th war and is shown on the scale that most people are expecting
Last edited by ameya730; January 18, 2010 at 10:18 PM.
except for this i agree with ur post.
he worked hard to find his legacy of pacifism,and tried in his own naive way to solve problems (like with rk),and now he finally understands that such ways seem futile.and sakura and othre ppl force him to choose other ways than pacifism.
so he is in shit.i would rather call this 'growing up'.
and i am curious to know how he will get out of this.
about 'thinking thinks properly',that means thinking with logic,but naruto has all along been irrational.and now he can no longer be irrational,reasons and logics for leaving sasuke has been drilled in his head pretty well.
that was the purpose of recent events since pain clearly,as kishi hinted that by making pain say naruto will find it very hard to follow his pacifism.
that was the time since naruto actually started 'growing up'.heeding logic and logics are rather scary for a person like naruto who thought he could change the world with pacifism.
in short,the way kishi is writing Naruto,it is not a hero's endeavor to clever success only,rather its about a mostly normal guy's endeavor to save normal things which leads him to become a hero.he isn't a born-courageous man,rather a man who has to learn to be courageous.
so its essential to let naruto fall hard on his face,and still not let him 'give up'.
Last edited by ashher; January 19, 2010 at 03:06 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Naruto's goal, bring peace, looks like it's already working well enough. He passed on his ideas to Gaara, who passed the ideas on to the other kage in the Summit meeting. Slowly, Naruto's ideas will pass to many shinobi. I'm not saying there will be complete peace, but there'll be less wars and less chances of wars, especially with shinobi like Gaara becoming kage.
Though I wouldn't say it's working well enough just yet. <_<
While I agree with you that there are always good people (such as Naruto) in life who exert positive influences to those around them, the vital question is this:
“Is this type of naive influences really sufficient to address most of the problems happening in Narutoverse without transforming the Ninja system backbone?”
Those aforementioned problems include but not limited to:
Well, even ASSUMING that all the VERY unlikely chances overlap with each other such that a chain reaction of “one person influencing another” occurs (example: Naruto influcences Gara, Gara influences his future wife and sons and subordinates, his subordinates influence their families and so on), how long will it take to transform the whole Narutoverse? Ten thousand years, may be?
- Dog-eat-dog world of ninjas and assassins.
- Revenge and hatred cycles without any justice being done.
According to my knowledge, most of the significant changes in history have been made by the following factors:
Seriously, Naruto is taking on the role of a Prophet. Even his other goal of saving Sasuke from darkness basically requires a (literally) prophetic effort. Kishi has already done it with Nagato. Just by talking with Nagato, Naruto transformed this extreme psychotic lunatic monster into a self-sacrificing hero. Right now, Kishi is making Naruto chase after Sasuke for the same thing. You know, I seriously want to borrow Naruto to “convert” a lot of world leaders nowadays. This is why those goals that Kishi has made for Naruto and the manga are extraordinarily lame, IMO. The only goal of Naruto which is not so lame is “becoming a Hokage”.
- One person changing the belief system of thousands/millions/billions of people (such as Prophets).
- Increase in knowledge.
- Radical scientific development.
- Wars and battles.
Even if Naruto’s goal is to become the “Unified Kage of all the Ninja Villages”, I’m willing to accept it with an open mind. As soon as Kishi started sprouting garbage and making Naruto into a potential prophet, the story has become very awkward and uninteresting. At the very core, Kishi has changed the theme of the manga from “a ninja story about a brave, positive and never-giving-up Ninja” to “the story of a prophet to convert the whole ninja nation”.
Last edited by maaghms; January 21, 2010 at 02:59 AM.
By Naruto talking with others and inspiring them to think similar to him like Gaara and Neji, he can spread the peace. Gaara and Neji can spread the idea to others, like the kage, random shinobi they meet, and etc. It's not easy, but by inspiring, Naruto can achieve peace. Maybe the peace won't exist on individual level, but it can reduce by making people realize revenge is a bad idea and power comes from love, not from hatred or selfishness and that there's no such thing as predestined fate.
Tsuchikage, an old man who has been through it all, since during Madara's time, thought about what Gaara said, and if I recall correctly, said not to fight any of 'em. Chiyo, seeing how Naruto related to Gaara and how determined he was to save him, despite being from different village, began to trust Naruto and even gave up her life for Gaara, which Temari said she wouldn't have done. Naruto's changed four people, at least, though one wasn't permanent change. He's changed Gaara, Neji, Sasuke, and Chiyo.
He made Gaara realize that bonds were important, and played a big part in Gaara giving up murdering. He made Neji believe that predestined fate isn't real and made Neji a better person; he even gets along with Hinata. Naruto even made Sasuke a team player and made him care about his teammates, though Orochimaru had to screw that up, and I guess Itachi. <_< Chiyo didn't believe in the next generations and thought there'd be wars, and that trusting villages would spell doom for Kuna. Along came Naruto to change her mind. So it is possible that by interaction alone, Naruto can spread peace between countries, if not individuals. Help each other out, support each other economically, no power struggle, etcetc.
While there may be some that oppose this, all ideas have opposition, no matter how minor. Gaara and Naruto and whoever else was affected can spread this idea with others. By not killing anyone and talking with them, they can inspire people to think about peace. Band together to help fight enemy shinobi group, send one of the best medic from a village to another village to help cure them. While it may not be wholly sufficient, it can become slowly sufficient as more and more people start believing in peace and getting along. Maybe this war can be the one to change how people think, especially if they see Naruto's personality. Never killing when possible, showing mercy while protecting. It is a possibility.
Naruto didn't transform Nagato though. Nagato shared Naruto and Jiraiya's ideals, but what he experienced made him think that destruction and giving others pain would solve the problem, if temporarily. Naruto just reminded Nagato of how he used to be, and what he gave up to achieve his dream of bringing peace to the world. Sasuke, however, did not believe in peace, he didn't care about peace. He wanted revenge, revenge on Itachi for wiping out his family, revenge on Madara for helping out, revenge on Danzou and the elders for making Itachi wipe out Uchiha and putting him in such state... revenge on Konoha for being the reason for Uchiha/Itachi's sacrifice. Sasuke dwells in hatred and revenge, which wills him to keep going. Nagato's desire for peace willed him to keep going; he may have wanted revenge, may have had hatred, but he also thought about peace though probably had the wrong means. There's a difference between Sasuke and Nagato, which is why I think Naruto may fail in redeeming Sasuke and thus, making Sasuke the final villain.
Until he takes care of the problem with Sasuke, I doubt he'll be willing to be a hokage, much less the unified kage. "If I can't save a friend, can I really be able to protect a village?" And if he does kill Sasuke, he may turn down the position due to guilt and feeling like a failure. In Part I, he wanted to be hokage because he wanted to be acknowledged by others, which he now is. So does he still want to be a hokage, especially when we haven't seen him talk about it in a long time?
other than that, good post!
Now I'm not saying Naruto cannot solve the problems of his time, like that of Madara, the Bijuu, the upcoming war, Sasuke, and other villains. Sure, he can. But he cannot bring peace. The only peace he's going to bring is for the period of time he will live in. The peace he'll bring will be fake, and that's all there is to it.
Even nowadays there's lots of countries wich do not have a democracy. And is not like Naruto can convince the entire ninja world in one day.
Other than that I enjoied the read.
P.s: And about animals being inferior they aren't while they may kill each other and are considered inferior due to that, we humans kill ourselves allong with the whole world. Wich one is worst? O.o
I agree with your post to a certain degree on how Naruto has positively influenced the people around him. Moreover, I can appreciate the fact that you went into details on how Naruto has influenced and modified some of their outlooks.
But now, imagine the most favorable (but highly improbable) situation for Naruto: he has "converted" the Kages of all the villages, just like he did with Gara. What then? Sure they can bring temporary "peace" to their respective villages. But after those Kages have died, what then? Obviously, those Kages would have children and subordinates and they will teach those children good morals, etc. Can we guarantee that children of good people will always tend out (or grow up) to be good? No. If that is really the case, we would not have a single villain in this world.
Sure, Naruto has changed Hinata. That's a personal thing. It does not mean Hinata can do repeat the same miracle for another. Sure Naruto has changed Neji. It does not mean that Neji can change another person in the same way. Naruto converted Chiyo. After she died, that's that.
Regarding Nagato, it was a total HAX, IMO. It's not like Nagato did not know that he was a villain. He deliberately chose to be one. Why? Because of all the cruelties, injustices, feelings of revenge and repeated external "brainwashing" that he has accumulated since he was young. He must have thought about "not giving up" millions of times. Nevertheless, he is not purely a victim of circumstances. Many people go through situations much worse than him and they do not become a mass murderer like Nagato. Now here comes Naruto, essentially telling Nagato:
"Jiraiya made the storybook out of your life story and I won't give up and I'll always follow Jiraiya's ideals".
Then, miraculously, Nagato was totally inspired and converted and became a martyre. Pretty cheap conversion, IMO. Kishi must not have studied real mental hospitals and patients in his entire lifetime. If Naruto has the ability to miraculously convert a super maniac and serial killer like Nagato just like that, I think he can convert or cure most of the worst psychiatric patients in some of most extreme mental hospitals nowadays.
On an unrelated note, many people are complaining about Sasuke's ever increasing array of hax jutsus. What they don't realize is that Naruto already have the greatest HAX jutsu of all time:
It is best explained by many characters in the manga when they claim:
"Naruto is the unusual ability to change people".
I'm afraid this fact will really be abused by Kishi in the future of the manga.
Last edited by maaghms; January 21, 2010 at 07:14 AM.
But those words "Then I'm going to brake the curse! If there's such a thing as peace I'm going to find it!!" were what inspired Jiraya and were said by Nagato himself. It probably made him realise that he had been wrong.
Nagato was mad and those words made him stop and think about what he had been doing.
[QUOTE=maaghms;1762866]Well, Gaara did help. He's the one that talked with Tsuchikage and told him his view, shared Naruto's idea.Quote:
Well, the problem with ninja going bad was because of the trauma they received. Nagato became "evil" because Konoha nins killed his parents and had a help in Yahiko's death. Konoha and other villages warring and using his country as battleground, devastating it and its inhabitants, pissed Nagato off and made him the way he was. Neji being forced to be servant to the main line as well as lose his father supposedly due to a command made him scorn hard work and hate the main family. Gaara being hated and denied existence made him a murderer so he could find a purpose to live. Sasuke became evil because of the losses he suffered due to Itachi, Madara, and Konoha. Orochimaru... well, I have no idea if he was good or had some evilness before his parents' deaths. Madara grew up in an era where there was constant war and death, but I have no idea if it had any influence on how he turned out.
What's common with them is that they used to be good. Nagato wanted to protect his friends, he wanted to bring peace. He never thought of violence as a way until Yahiko died. Neji thought Hinata was cute and liked her, and he never had any bad feelings towards the main family. Gaara wanted friends and he wanted to be normal. Sasuke loved his brother and his family and was a good kid. Events in their lives or the treatment they received turned them into negative characters. It was because of wars and the way their society was established that turned them bad.
If the kage established peace, there would be less wars, less events, less reason for the next generation to be evil or violent. Even the next generation believes in peace, most anyway. If there was no war between Konoha and villages, and if Nagato's country wasn't used as a battlefield, his parents would still be alive. The country might be doing well, and he wouldn't have resorted to being "god" to bring peace. If Hyuuga society wasn't set up that second-borns were servants or whatever, Neji would have no grudge. His father may not have died, or he wouldn't have blamed his uncle for his father's death. If there was no war, Gaara may not have had the bijuu sealed in him, and thus not become hated and feared. If Kuna society didn't fear jinchuuriki, Gaara wouldn't have become evil, he wouldn't have murdered just to have a purpose in life. If Uchiha wasn't planning on coup d'etat, and if they got along with Konoha, and possibly if Madara didn't summon the kyuubi, there would have been no massacre and no Sasuke being evil or hellbent on revenge. If peace existed, there'd be fewer bad shinobi.
I don't mean that peace will be complete and that every shinobi will stop fighting. There will be bad shinobi that'll cause havoc and etc for fun or for reason. But with peace, there'd be less hatred and less fighting, less reason to fight. The fewer people get killed, less likely revenge will appear as reason for fighting.
He changed Hinata's attitude about herself. He gave her self-confidence, I don't see any way else he changed her other than making her work harder.Quote:
But it is still possibility that Neji can change others. He can show others that hard work and the person sets their own path, and that darkness leads to nowhere. Gaara can do the same. They were happier and lived better because they changed the way they thought. Gaara worked hard to get the village to accept him and even became kage, because Naruto showed him that bonds were important.
Did he really think he was a villain though, or did he see himself as a god and a savior destined to bring peace, even if temporarily and repetitively? His reasoning for doing what he did was for peace, not for any selfish desire, so he may have thought of himself as a good guy.Quote:
Which is why he wanted to bring peace, to have others avoid the ordeals he went through. He's been betrayed, he's had his loved ones killed, all due to war and fighting. People wanting revenge, wanting something out of selfishness. He wanted to change that since what happened was out of his or anyone's control but the major warring villages. His ideals were similar to Jiraiya, he never thought about hurting or killing anyone to bring peace. He gave up on "not giving up" and thought about becoming god because it never worked for him, because he couldn't find a solution and thought Yahiko's was the best. Yahiko basically converted him, and Naruto converted him back by using Jiraiya's book to remind Nagato what he said. I don't think Jiraiya made a story out of anyone's lifestory, but he merely used Nagato's lines and hoped that's how Nagato would turn out.Quote:
Nagato became a mass murderer because of the events in his life. He kept losing his loved ones, people kept dying around him. He couldn't protect the ones close to him so he resorted to justice and peace via murder and etc. Gaara became a murderer too. Naruto might have, but he found someone to accept him, and soon after, he found few people that gave him purpose to live.
It may have been a bad conversion, but I still stand by that he converted back to the way he used to be. Naruto's refusal to admit defeat is what began to Won Nagato over, I think. I'll have to read the chapters again and analyze though, I think. <_<Quote:
Naruto didn't convert a super maniac and a serial killer. He made Nagato change back into who he was, a good person that would never give up on solutions to find peace. Nagato was never a maniac, and he became a killer because he thought that was a way to achieve peace. Nagato's actions were result of his desire for peace and revenge, as well as serving jusice.
To be fair, though he did temporarily convert Sasuke, Sasuke went back to being an avenger. And since then, Naruto hasn't been able to convert Sasuke, especially at their second battle (Valley of the End). He wasn't able to convert Madara either, nor convince Raikage to stop chasing Sasuke. Naruto did fail at times, to convert people.Quote:
The peace he brings can last a long time. It depends on the countries willing to participate and help. If they help each other and support each other, peace can last for a long time.