Hm, I'm not sure if I'm reading your views correctly, but from the way I understand you, you make it seem much easier than it really is. In fact you are proposing that it's possible. It's you opinion of course, and I accept that, but still, I'd like to expand further on why I believe the opposite. I may not have done a good job in my previous post.
When people are hungry, or the economy is doing horrible, people take drastic measures. War is usually if not always the end result, which in turn lessens the population, and the process continues over and over again. History is strewn with this fact. When a nation exhausts their resources, as well as the other nations, what are they going to do? Share? That's impossible. Because if they share, there still won't be enough. A limit will be reached. Remember with the smaller countries also becoming more populated as well, their needs will need to be met. Then a country will resort to steal, kill, or worse for resources, goods, etc. (If you think about it, the Sand would have the worst of troubles. They live in the desert. What would happen if their population rises to an extent where food is becoming scarce? They don't have access to the sea, and imagine animals, edible/sustainable goods, are all but becoming dangerously scarce. So in this Utopian scenario, they go to their neighbors who are also having a tough time, to share. You see the problem? Either the Sand starts to accept their poverty (which many wouldn't) and die, or take things by force.) And again as I said before. When wars over resources begin, then it becomes personal. Like how Raikage found it extremely personal that his brother was kidnapped. The concept of understanding or sharing will only temporarily solve the problem. Think of a forest. When it becomes too large, a fire is bestowed upon it to become sustainable once again, and to grow again what it once lost.
Another point to look at. Every country has a type of government that is imperfect morally speaking. There is no way around it. There is always some degree of corruption to every type of government, where someone is left unhappy, poor, etc. Now with the Ninja Villages, they operate, from what we know with some degree of shared authority from feudal lords, a council with the Kage being directly responsible for the militaristic affairs of the village. This basically means that they operate as a dictatorship. The Kage holds all of the responsibilities that befall the village. Now on one hand, we are told that the ninja system doesn't work and Naruto will have to abolish it somehow or revolutionize it, but on the other hand Naruto will one day become Hokage... This causes a few problems goal-wise. Aside from that... now with the constant amount of missions assigned, which are largely funded/backed by feudal lords, who often ask for people to be killed for their own benefit, what happens to them? They hold up the economy to a great extent to these villages. They hold much of the wealth. And with Naruto's system, he can't just take their money away. Stopping their wishes and desires, means no money for the Ninja Villages. They'll be upset, and be vengeful. (Someone will take the job though. When you are hungry, you'll do anything) Money is power. If Konoha doesn't accept a mission, another country will. Not to mention the fact that some missions will be considered immoral to some extent that can cause conflict between countries. Something has to give. But aside from that, the dictatorship, no matter how kind and understanding the system operates, there will always be unhappy people. Why? It's answered in my next point.
The village consists of many different clans as we see evidence for in Konoha. You can think of these clans as many small minorities within a village. Now, we saw with the Uchiha, there was a conflict. Inevitably a clan with different values, different customs/beliefs, you are going to have a problem sooner or later. These beliefs collide, and conflict begins. Now this is only a problem on a small scale. Think of how the Muslims believe certain things and how other religious groups believe other things. There kind of tension grows. Therefore, if you watch closely, each clan has their own area of the village to somehow suppress these problems. This could for all intents and purposes solve the problem temporarily. But how about a larger scale problem between countries? It's impossible for Naruto to study all of these cultures, values and beliefs of every country, just to find a common ground between them so that there can exist peace. Not only that. What about the ninja system not working as well as in the past? This creates a gap between the wealth classes. The ninja who would buy products is also supporting the economy. They will be out of work through this "peace". Businesses will be lost, and people will eventually become poor, hungry, uneducated, etc. Why? Because of this utopian system Naruto will create. This potentially will cause problems of resentment as well. Resentment or fear between "super-human" ninja and normal people. This is another problem, but not one I will expand on.
The way the Naruto Universe functions... well it's inevitable that certain groups/clans will be advantaged and others disadvantaged. To generate a peaceful world would require the complete elimination of these inequalities. Inequalities of every kind, mind you. Inequalities regarding wealth, power, etc. Humans consume though, and there's a limit to how much one consumes, no matter how moderate one is. Naruto's efforts to create peace, no matter how great, is never going to accomplish this, and even if he could for arguments sake, it wouldn't be all that easy. It would take literally years with the problems of his time. The fact remains. Many people will inevitably suffer for the greater good.
Now I'm not saying that Naruto won't revolutionize the world to some extent and create temporary peace. But again this peace is not going to last. It can't. History is filled with great and well run empires established by wise men and then squandered/ruined by their heirs. Any peace Naruto establishes by his will alone, would collapse upon his death. When you indulge the world in the ways of peace, then a world that has never known war, will easily fall into it again. Even if everyone is educated about war, learning about it, and having experienced it are two different worlds. That is all I'm saying.
Last edited by zagorka; January 21, 2010 at 07:15 PM.
On the contrary, I believe that everybody is born “good” and sinless. I strongly don’t believe that people are born evil or sinful regardless what many people might think. Can you imagine in your mind right now the most evil/villainous/murderous person in history? I believe that that person, whom you are thinking of right now, was also born pure, sinless and innocent. This purity is maintained until the age of puberty. Once that age has been passed, people face many circumstances and they make their own decision and choices on their own future. Nagato has made his very strong choice. Therefore, in my opinion, I’m not entirely convinced with the argument: “Naruto could convert Nagato because Nagato fundamentally used to be good”.
Naruto’s goal of creating ideal peace is utterly impossible no matter how we look at it. This has been explained really well by zagorka in his latest post.
Now, I would like to point out a few things myself.
Firstly, regarding the notion of “eternal peace”, it’s impossible to achieve it in this world, IMO. In this life, everything comes in twos. Easiness is always associated with difficulty. Challenges are always associated with relief. Peace is always associated with conflicts. Happiness is always associated with sadness. The main problem with Nagato was his extreme immaturity of being unable to realize that simple truth. Due to some of the challenges in life that he has faced, he refused to believe that there are really good things in this world (even in periods of wars) and goodness is always associated with badness. I don’t believe in ideas such as Naruto creating an ideal everlasting peace and the rest of the generations living happily ever after. To maintain peace, effort has to be consistently applied. As I see it, the scene of Naruto and Nagato having that conversation and Nagato being converted is just like two kindergarten children with both of them having extremely simplistic and unrealistic goals and observations of life.
Nagato was converted and gave up his life essentially because he came to accept Naruto’s ideal of peace which is totally garbage, IMO. One a manga level, the wise thing for Kishi is to focus on realistic goals such as “becoming the Hokage”, “becoming the unified Kage of all villages” and etc. Even the goal of “bringing Sasuke from darkness to light” seems reasonable. But the only problem with the latter is its inherent “lameness”. I read Naruto manga because I want to see a really nice story and ninjas kicking ass. Of course, there have to be sufficient emotional and sad moments in the manga. But now, if the goal of Naruto is indeed “bringing Sasuke to light” or “bringing everlasting peace”, the whole manga has turned to nothing more than 100% emotional soap opera with impossible prophetic tasks which will need a million of successive miracles to work. Not to mention the fact that I don’t like to see the de jure main character chasing after his another character for the whole duration of the manga. There are already suitable goals for Naruto such as to defeat madara, stop akatsuki and so on. It’s all about moderation and balance. A Shonen manga which crosses that balance, in addition to slamming the main character’s face on the floor thousands of times just to evoke sympathy from the audience, is unbecoming.
It is true that Shonen mangas are full with some goals of “main characters saving their best friends”. Take a look at One Piece. The “rescue robin” arc was a typical example. However, there is a gigantic difference compared to the situation Naruto. The main character (Luffy) in One Piece chased after his Nakama (Robin) because he wants to confirm whether she has really decided to leave him (his crew). He even told her that he will not save her if she herself doesn’t want to be saved and if she herself publicly declares that she doesn’t intend to be saved. This should be the attitude of a strong person who is befitting to be the main character. Imagine how One Piece would be ruined if Luffy keeps chasing after Robin (forgetting his other goals such as becoming the Pirate King, etc) for the whole duration of the manga regardless of whether she actually wants to be saved. This is the whole point.
A Shounen manga surely contains goals such as “saving friends”. But Naruto has taken it too far at the expense of ALL other interesting goals. His mind is filled with nothing but Sasuke 24 hours a day. Some people bring up the fact that Naruto is only a young teenager and he needs time to grow up. Wrong. If, in the Naruto manga, people can become a Kage when they are 15 years old (not sure if Gara was 15 years when he became Kage), there is no reason why Naruto should be forgiven for being so immature, ESPECIALLY after Kishi’s super hype about how Naruto has become really strong and mature after the 3 years time skip. Another thing is that this has nothing to do with the age. Many people in this forum have gone through Naruto’s teenage years. If anybody in his age is acting like that and obsessing over a guy like that, you can be sure that he has a very big emotional problem. Of course, as expected there would be a few people willing to support that behavior and praise Kishi for it.
You know, even though there are many hardcore Naruto fans who religiously defend Kishi, Kishi himself seems to realize the sentiments of the critics. So why does he keeping doing it? In one sentence: “Kishi is milking the juice out of Sasuke before going to focus on Naruto”. As simple as that. When he started writing the manga, Kishi did not intend to even create the Sasuke character. But his editors insisted otherwise because they felt that Naruto needed some sort of a rival and a brother figure. This, according to my knowledge, is how Sasuke came into the story. In Part I, I truly enjoyed BOTH Naruto and Sasuke and their rivalry. At that time, the popularity of Sasuke was jumping up day by day. Near the end of Part I, the popularity of Sasuke rose even higher than Naruto. Thus, for Part II, Kishi decided to milk Sasuke’s popularity as much as he can. This is where it all went down. As he kept milking Sasuke, the popularity of the manga itself went down the charts. Kishi also made other unrealistic goals for Naruto such as “creating ever-lasting peace” or “converting Sasuke” so that he can bring back Naruto to the storyline NEAR THE END of the manga.
I was explaining everything in the last paragraph to point out to you why even Kishi is unsure of himself on how he can make Naruto realistically achieve all the proposed goals that he has placed upon Naruto. Of course, as expected, he is either going to ignore some of the goals or he’s totally going to change the direction and goals of the manga. Yet again.
Last edited by maaghms; January 22, 2010 at 12:00 AM.