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Justice and revenge tend to go hand in hand with each other, but rarely, they aren't always associated with each other. What Naruto did against Pain was justice. He had a chance at getting revenge, but he chose not to. Instead, Nagato chose to do justice for his actions against Konoha and revived those he had killed.
What Sasuke is doing isn't justice, at all. He's aiming to kill innocent Konoha villagers just to get revenge. His actions dictate he has warped view of justice as he's targeting people that had nothing to do with his clan's slaughter. Even the elders, who had no choice but to have Uchiha killed to avoid a civil war. Naruto's way of justice is justified because Pain was attacking Konoha, and Nagato may have destroyed countless of lives had he achieved his plans. Naruto also did not seek revenge, since Nagato was effectively stopped.
Justice and Revenge is 2 different things. I don't know how people can compare the two things. Justice is my eyes is making someone pay for crimes they commit. that's justice. Revenge is when someone is very hateful towards people or a group of people in this case. Revenge cannot be compared with justice in sasuke's case because the people of kohana had nothing to do with the massacre yet they are stuck in the middle. What is justice is for sasuke to pay for his revenge. Now that is justice as perceived by society. even though naruto is fiction, the philosophy naruto preaches is unrealistic and it cannot be achieved by any human means. Stories portray a message and I don't think we are ready for that message just yet.
Last edited by triniman121; July 19, 2010 at 06:12 PM. Reason: spelling errors drive me crazy
Dude your so right,and since sauske got what he wanted in the end with danzos death in a way all he really needs to do is kill the other elders.However I believe that Naruto's dream is unrealistic because of the nature of humans and the sin's that are commit by simply existing.I mean look at pain the one who brought down a dictator yet became one himself and appointed himself as god, could you call that justice for the people of the rain?Or the fact that many shinobi died because sarutoboi failed to kill oro,you could say that the justice for those said ninja were lost in away.
I am not really siding with Naruto or Sasuke.
Sasuke is doing his own version of Justice, and just destroying anyone that is on the way that is stopping him or slowing him down aka Naruto.
As far as I understand it, Nagato should just have the ninja who killed his parents to be executed but not the whole konoha since they all are not at fault
and thus, Naruto's version of Justice is most sought since he didn't only use force to remedy the problem but psych as well and made the one who is in revenge uplift from his misery
So hail Naruto's Justice version.
The simplest thing I can say is
You need a judge and court to bring justice
Anything else is revenge
Last edited by elitefox; July 19, 2010 at 08:25 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Well the 3rd party I would assume would be society. Society tends to judge what justice really is.
His own version of justice isn't justice though. It's revenge. He aims to kill every innocent Konoha citizens; he even enjoys the feeling of revenge. Those citizens didn't do wrong to him, even though the elders have. He doesn't even know the whole story, and he should suspect Tobi lying. Instead, he seeks to exact revenge on something he himself don't fully know aobut.
But, is that really fair to the ninjas who killed his parents out of self defense? Wouldn't that be more like revenge instead of justice?
If I missunderstood what you mean in those lines I quote please tell me so that I correct the thing.
They weren't trying to push Uchiha to their limits though. They wanted to make sure what Madara did wouldn't happen again. There was one Uchiha who rebelled, then there was an attack on the village by Kyuubi, who was thought to be controlled by Uchiha because of Madara's ability to control it. Then they found out Uchiha was planning a coup d'etat, which may have caused a civil war and destroy Konoha. Itachi knew about this plan, yet he still agreed. He wouldn't have agreed if Uchiha was innocent. I'm not justifying the genocide, but even Itachi wouldn't have agreed (since he's a good guy <_<) if Uchiha was innocent. Konoha could let it slide by, and watch Uchiha try to take revenge on the way they were treated, which would cause countless of deaths. Another path was to kill Uchiha and avoid needless deaths caused by their rebellion. Instead of Uchiha and Konoha dying, it'd be just Uchiha, and no other villages would dare attempt to attack Konoha even if they lost their strongest.
The problem with this is, Konoha was kind of taking revenge on Uchiha due to Kyuubi and assumed assocation with Madara and thus Uchiha. After, Uchiha was wanting revenge due to Konoha treating it like it was guilty. Revenge was and is the main reason why things happened. If Madara had not sought revenge against Hashirama, Uchiha wouldn't have been suspected of anything nor would they have lost trust. If Tobi didn't orchestrate the attack on Konoha with Kyuubi for revenge, Uchiha wouldn't have landed in trouble. If Konoha did not seek revenge on Kyuubi by blaming something they thought was behind it, Uchiha wouldn't have been massacred. If Uchiha did not try to get revenge on being suspected, they would still be alive. It's revenge that's the problem, especially Madara. His want for revenge led to destruction of Uchiha.
Naruto wanted revenge, but he rose above that and chose justice instead, stopping Pain. Due to him not taking revenge, Nagato's hopes were revived, and with it so were the casualties.
I understand what you said about the cycle of revenge, the thing is clear and I don't go against the principel: Madara/Tobi deserves punishment too.
But I seriously doubt Tobirama started repressive measures on uchiha just because he feared some otehr uchiha would follow Madara's footstep. Soem Uchiha followed Madara's way because of what Tobirama was secretly doing: getting them away from the administration psot they were in with Senju and lower them more and more through time (Tobi's attack just quicken the inevitable). The Uchiha clearly showed that they prefered to maintained stability and order with Senju when they litteraly turned them back on Madara when he wanted support to become Hokage and chose Hashirama, a Senju, who was for years (in Hashirama's case) their enemy (and for centuries, in you take the clan into account). They had no intension of trying to reverse what the majority (including themselves) decided by chosing a Senju as Shodai Hokage. As all the adults (in shinobi way) voted for who should become the Konoha leader, both Hashirama and Tobirama saw that the Uchiha unanimously chose him(the 1st) against one of their kind who fought for them many years to preserve peace.
What Tobirama did wasn't preventing hypothetic or probable disorter, it was "payback time", he remembered the old grudge against the Red Fan and the current Elders just maintained what he started(since Saru-dono didn't succeed in stopping them), especially Danzou, who even though is the first to talk trash on Shodai's and Sandaime's backs never does on Nidaime's even if this one chose Saru over him right in his face.
I'm not saying bringing inrelated people in the mess by realizing or attempting a coup d'etat because one wishes to change the rotten system doesn't matter or isn't something that big, not at all, and I'm not either supporting Sasuke in his attempt to destroy the whole Leaf, but I don't care in the least about the Elders. What they and Nidaime did was forcing a fakeself-defense/save-the-innocente situation that could be prevented to happen as the Uchiha plotted a Coup d'etat after more repression came on them even though they shut their mouths for generations. Eldersand Nidaime aren't innocents in the least, they did what Itachi and Tobi did/said with Sasuke, the best kind of lie: if you want someone to eat shit (lie/attack) surround with common food, meat, lettuce and bread (truth/self/defense) and the dude with eat it.
The best illusions don't require chakra or doujutsu.
Not supporting Sasuke's attack on the whole village or Uchiha bring innocents in the thing (Senju did too), but after the doublecross of the Senju/Elders the Uchiha just reacted by not bending their backbone and realized the saying of the proud free: "We'd rather die on our feet than live on our knees" (well, they'd die eventually if they'd live on their knees so they didn't have the choice anyway.
It's because Itachi knew all that but didn't want the many to die that he was tourmented that much but still decided to follow the Elders's orders. He therefore, as Danzou said, embodied SHINOBI, blade over heart/heart under blade= self-sacrifice.
So the elders didn't self-defended, they concluded the well prepared mass assasination.
But I don't think they all(all) deserve moral and justice thing at all. That's what happens when your culture considers normal, natural the trained your children to become assassins and wartools (sore ga shinobi da). All that, as you and many stated it, was inevitable. Just watch/read Kouga Ninpou Scroll, the same thing happenes. In our world, those it end well for teh children-soldiers? no, same crap happens in Naruto, there's no place for justice and peace in there world. It's hypocrisy.
But cool manga, though.
Those two words seem to be the same, it is just that the other is pretty and the other implies bad.
The one thing they have in common is retaliation, maybe another synonym.
If I recall right, only Tobi said Niidaime gave Uchiha power to guard Konoha, with the establishment of police force and etc. However, Tobi could have been lying. Maybe Niidaime did give Uchiha such standings because he believed in Uchiha. He thought the first step to establishing peace and trust was to give Uchiha more power and let them know they were part of Konoha. Maybe it's Tobi that's lying or misunderstood Niidaime's intentions as he wasn't a part of Konoha anymore. We don't exactly know what happened with Tobirama and Uchiha, but I highly doubt he did what he did just to give them away from politics.
What Elders did may not have been justice, but they thought it was best. Preemptive strike can be better than waiting until it's too late. Maybe Elders and possibly Tobirama may have planned this, but Uchiha did play a part too.
Naruto showed that there can be justice and peace. If anyone, I think Naruto himself will be able to establish peace. He was able to change at least three people for the better and make them believe in possibility of peace. He was able to change Gaara from a murderous monster to a respectable person who loved his village. He was able to change Neji from someone who believed in predestined path to someone who realized hard work was the way to go. He made Chiyo, an old woman with tons of experience, a woman who has personally seen the horrors of the shinobi world, believe in him and believe that Suna and Konoha can work together. I believe that Naruto can really establish peace and even justice; he's been selfless enough to do it. His justice doesn't equal to killing people, but having them change heart. But I bet if he needed to, he'd take strict actions.
I really do have faith in Naruto being able to establish peace after seeing the people he changed. I kinda don't count Nagato because Naruto basically changed Nagato back into what he was. Justice is serving punishment unbiased, without thought of personal satisfaction. Revenge is meting out punishment for personal satisfaction. Two can go hand in hand, but they can be separate from each other.
I'm peace with your view of justice.
And the thing about "Naruto will change the chaotic world to a peaceful one" is something to most likely will happen (He's the main character afterall), it will probably last longer than the peace Rikudou and Hashirama brought, but it won't last. Humans will prevent that. In fact, ever since the Zabuza Arc, more precisely ever since Naruto's tirade to Zabuza I knew he was going to scrap the ninja world and turn them into sissys (hahaha), seriously we knew from that moment that he would go against the code of ninja like Obito but more hardcore.
What I'm trying to say (readers'reaction:"at last!") is that Uchiha most likely didn't have that much of work as the MPF (Military Police Force). For the other types of shinobi mission, yes, but when you have the Uchiha Clan for Police, the Clan who by far dominated the previous war era with Senju, you'd have to be either crazy or deadly strong to challenge them. What's more, there was also the Senju in the village (less survival probability for criminals) and weren't there also the ANBU that Tobirama created? You have 2 forces that deal with criminals? (Maybe they split the work). But I'd admit that since they were also the MPF, Konoha most likely, supported by 2nd DB, was the village who had the least to fear when it came to village territory during the past Great Wars compared to all other villages (after their extinction Suna managed what never happened).
but from 3rd DB, we can see in the "Other characters" info zone (yeah, the thing that no reads since the main characters are above) that ANBU (most likely Senju members for that specific task) were surveying the Uchiha and perceived them as enemies, proving that Tobirama wasn't all peace, he kept seeing Uchiha as old enemies. The Senju Elders just continued what he started.
The MPF thing wasn't promotion, they used to be part of the administration alongside Senju.
It's not easy to forget when you hated someone for over a millenium. In Basilisk too of the Koga, Gennosuke, tried to achieve peace with Iga, but clearly not everybody from his clan approved it even if they followed his lead. In Naruto, they joined forces, but some Senju, including Tobirama, obviously did not want to forget so easily, even if in this case they wanted peace to come in the world. So when Nidaime started his policies against Uchiha, that were disguised as a sign of trust, some Uchiha who saw through it and protested (Setsuna's group), but apparently failed. But after generations, it seems that because the Village strengthened the system against them after the Kyuubi's attack that the Uchiha had enough and started to plot the coup d'etat. Mistrust led to ill-will, not mistrust because of ill-will.
Tobirama is a ninja and acted like a ninja. His plans were behing the wall in the shadow. Understanding well human psychology and all species's survival reaction to a threat, he disguised his plans in such a way that people would say things like: "Uchiha are greedy; they just want power; Tobirama, a founder so dear to the village trusted them and that's how they thank him!; they're putting the village's safety in jeopardy" etc. As i said, the best lies are those who contain truth so that when people observe (but not enough) they see that the lie is supported by facts they can themselves support and so don,t see the subtle lie. Madara did the same: he lied about Kyuubi but didn't to when it came to the rest since truth was more easy in triggering Sasuke's hatred and feeling of loss. Tobirama could well disguise his ill intentions since he really cared about the whole village, but not about Uchiha. He knew that if the Uchiha were to protest the village would regroup against them if the secret was kept: sacrificing few (in comparison) for the sake of the many. And artificial survival situation was brought to get rid of Uchiha. Tobi's to blame to since he put more oil on the fire.
Did Uchiha really put the village in jeopardy? Yes. Why? Because of survival since they were driven to a corner after having been double-crossed. Too bad Sarutobi didn't stop the old system, he was cool and peace.
Is Konoha's(not the Elders's) decision to track Sasuke down since legitimate since he's affecting world peace? Yes, one can't expect no reaction when saying out loud that he's going to destroy you. Does justice (even though it a world of ninja) need to be brought on the remaining Elders for not doing what was "really" necessary to prevent Sasuke's revenge on them all? Yes, they too put unrelated people into this mess. Are sasuke's attack on the rest of Konoha justified? I don't think so. (Jet Li, in Fearless, didn't kill his famili's assassin's family because they didn't diserve such thing.)
Last edited by GyoMasta; July 20, 2010 at 10:06 AM.