Ok this is the deal, Just finished going through some character's stats in the databooks... And some are complete nonsence!...
Take kakashi's example... This dude is just 0.5 away from oro(34.5 to 35), mahn, this is complete bulls as the difference should be far more than that...
Then there's the issue of kakuzu being 32.5 compared 2 kakashi's 34.5, when kakuzu should outright rape his ass!, and why is his speed 4 and not higher than kakashi's when it's clear he's faster...
There were some i'd agree with... Itachi and jiraiya being equal but most of those stats are bullcraps as far as i'm concerned...
U guys could disagree with me or u could just provide your characters that u think are underated in the data book stats and pick a fight with another character that u think is overated or something like that... As 4 me, its definately kakuzu vs kakashi...
P.S. If this thread is a replica of one somewhere else the mods should please lock up this 1 as i'm not too familiar with wats up here...
If you ask me those stats are not ment to show which character is the strongest. They are only there so that people can compare simple things like "would Kiba be fast enough to keep up with Kakashi?". For this purpose they are quite accurate and there's nothing wrong with them.
They dont take into account individual abilities, which are the most important point when it comes to actual power in combat.
to a sense they do reflect the power levels of characters. i like that the sannin stats are higher than everyone so far. i also think that its legit that itachi and jiraya have the highest stats released so far because from what weve seen they were prolly the two strongest individuals alive at the time. i just think its messed up because theres an implied extended scale. for example itachi has a 5 in genjutsu but so does kurenai. its clear that itachis genjutsu skills are far superior to hers. in all actuallity itachi would prolly get a rating of 10 for genjutsu.i think that the scale would be better if each category was out of 10, 5 is not enough room to place emphasis on the gaps in power.
Kakashi is an expert in almost every feild of ninja arts. He's a genius and mastered a bloodline that isn't his own, and thus his stats reflect that, they aren't high for no reason.
As for Kakazu, he show'd us no genjutsu stats, but had great stamina, ninjutsu and taijutsu. He rarely used seals, and his intelligence was kind of lacking. His strength was also huge, but his speed wasn't overly impressive. Keep in mind, by the time he was in a taijutsu fight with Kakashi, Kakashi was already injured and exausted.
The overall number means very little IMO. All the stats do is give us an indication, on what fields each ninja excels in. Kakashi is an all round ninja, well versed in every aspect of shinobi combat, and hence his stats represent that. Naruto is a brawler, with huge reserves, who's true strength is his persistent. I think his stats represent that rather well. Also many other ninja's are gimped by the fact there is a limiter on how high you can be rated. Where someone like Itachi is a 5 in speed, the Raikage or Minato would be a 7 or 8, or similarly with Jiraiya and Naruto, whom both have a 5 in Stamina, yet Naruto's is likely the highest in the Manga, due to his ability to access 3 sources of Stamina. (His own, Natural Energy & The Kyuubi)
No, i think that should be obvious to everyone. Having a higher overall stat doesn't automatically make you stronger than someone that has a lower stat. And neither does having the same stat has someone make you just as strong as the person.
But 4 real, he was calm, calculating and thinking ahead of time as shown where he left one arm underground 2 remove shika's kage mane(had a 4.5 there)... Because he got fooled by naruto doesn't mean he's not intelligent as naruto would fool every1 in the manga(whilst in battle)... Maybe only itachi cuz that guy would suck him in a genjustu quite easily but every other person, naruto would fool.
And kakuzu's speed beats that of kakashi's cuz kakashi couldn't land hits even with his sharingan and kakuzu was handling him quite well...
When they went in2 a taijustu fight, kakuzu also had 1 of his hearts removed, 3 were outside fighting and then came kakashi with his sharingan also abit tired but that was kinda early(maybe not, i can't remember) in the fight and kakuzu beat him...
The stats i have problems with are:
Tai: kakashi, 4.5 kakuzu, just a 4... It should be atleast the same...
Speed: kakashi, 4.5
and kakuzu, just a 4... Again, should be atleast the same...
Then strength: kakuzu has a 4... Damn this!, this dude is 1 of the few that should have a complete 5 in the entire series...
I know it's stupid to argue with something like the databook but from what i've seen from the manga, i can't come to terms with what is written there...
Might I remind you a few things.
1) Kakashi had previously been blown to shit with a A rank Futon jutsu and show how survived. Kakazu was amazed by this.
2) Kakashi was not even at 100% while going into the battle, he had previously hurt his hand while training Naruto.
3) Kakashi had to block an A-Rank Raiton attack with two Rakiri's.
4) Kakashi wasted much of his stamina using 4 Rakiri's and various other techniques.
Kakazu, when fighting Kakashi, was basically at 100%. Losing Hearts doesn't take away form his stamina in anyway, so that doesn't count. Kakashi was already injured and fatigued when he engaged Kakazu in a fight, hence why his speed wasn't great.
And if I'm not mistaken, Kakashi actually has a 5 in speed. Kakazu showed nothing that would make him very fast.
Kakazu didn't show anything impressive with his taijutsu. He got Kakashi because of his tenticles, not his taijutsu.
As for intelligence, Kakazu underestimated his opponenets several times, and was tricked by a Naruto plan that wasn't even that good. In fact, if Naruto wasn't tired and didn't have shitty chakra control, Kakazu would have been done in with the first FRS.
NIN TAI GEN INT
5 4.5 4 5
STR SPEED STM
3.5 4.5 3
HND SEALS TOTAL
Kakuzu didn't underestimate any of them except naruto... He basically handled kakashi and the rest b4 naruto came... Naruto gets any1 with his kagebushin and has tricked kakashi as well when he was a just a fresh grad during the 1st bell test(coming out of the water with kbs and leaving 1 behind him to hold him down) and during the 2nd bell exams, naruto used a kb to trick kakashi and coming behind him and then hitting even though it was a clone...
Fact is that naruto deceives every1 with kbs and when kakazu realised what was up, he then switched 2 long range mode and got naruto... Pity naruto could swith with his kbs or something like that...
Shika has commented on kakazu's speed being crazy fast and when he moved 2 pick hidan's head, that was fast movement...
Also when kakashi thought he had killed kakazu and was going 4 hidan, kakazu moved faster and appeared in front of him and gave him a sweet kick while kakashi was in motion... This states how fast kakazu is...
HAND SEALS: 5
Sorry 4 being untidy earlier
Last edited by kingplaya(minato); February 09, 2010 at 02:12 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Naruto has never tricked Kakashi or Sasuke with Kage Bushin, he doesn't trick everyone number 1.
Number 2, Kakazu had the benefit of having Hidan fighting with him most of the time. Kakashi had the benefit of protection three noobies while trying to kill both Hidan and Kakazu. It wasn't until Hidan and Shika left that Kakashi could finally fight Kakazu alone, and by that time he was already injured and exausted whereas Kakazu had only lost 1 heart that Kakashi himself destroyed.
Also, please provide a link where Shikamaru said Kakazu was fast, I don't remeber that.
As for how fast Kakashi is, and why he's faster than Kakazu, Kakashi can keep up with Itachi, who is one of the fastest ninja in the manga. Kakazu pales in comparison.
Because we all know a hurt hand indicates a crippling injury? Never mind Kakuzu had lost a heart when he and Kakashi started fighting..Quote:
You mean he had to waste energy blocking his opponent's attack. Umm...so is Kakuzu supposed to play fair?Quote:
You mean Raikiris his opponents made him use mostly? Kakashi doesn't have good stamina. Kakuzu and Hidan do.Quote:
Wouldn't them exploiting his weaknesses be evidence they're good fighters?
When was he fatigued or injured when he began that battle? Losing hearts removes Kakuzu's defense and offense, not to mention he and Hidan had just gone three days in a sealing ritual with no rest, immediately before fighting Asuma and group and destroying a monk temple. With no breaks. At allQuote:
Kakashi has a 4.5 in speed. So does KakuzuQuote:
The tentacles are part of his Taijutsu. Even without them, he's got a solid 4Quote:
Kakuzu has a 4.5 in intelligence. He took Kakashi rather seriously and was about to murder him twice over.Quote:
Both of whom know him and his fighting style very well. He did trick Neji at one point with it, and Pain, and Kakuzu...Quote:
This is blatant twisting of the factsQuote:
Hidan's contribution to the fight was to briefly assault Kakashi twice. He was also a firm liability at points, forcing Kakuzu to help him out. Moreover? Choji and Shikamaru were far from useless in that fight, with Choji managing to delay a revival of Kakuzu's and attack him while Shikamaru was able to analyze and inform Kakashi about Kakuzu's abilities as well as deal with Hidan.
Nothing indicates Kakashi took any injury to slow him down. Or that he was incredibly tired. And if he was, then Kakuzu forced him to defend himself and his comrades, draining his stamina. Why is fighting intelligently unfair? It's like complaints that Kakashi destroyed a heart via sneak attack
He doesn't have to. The Databook provides it well enoughQuote:
Poor logic. Itachi being fast and Kakashi-barely- being able to keep up means nothing to Kakuzu's own considerable speed when Itachi never, ever fought Kakashi aiming to kill.Quote:
Lightsnake, i agree with everything u said apart from kakazu's speed stats... It's a 4... I've already put kakashi's stats above and here is kakuzu's...
HND SEALS: 3.5
Where i have problems with are... Speed, tai and strength... His taijustu should be on par with kakashi or better considering the way he handled kakashi(delbi, the tenticles are his property just like sasuke and kakashi's sharingans aid their taijustu)... And his speed is supposed to be on par with kakashi or better.
Then this dude's strength is supposed 2 be a solid 5, nothing less.
Sasuke's Sharigan and Kakashi's Sharigan play no part in their taijutsu. Things like speed, strength and jutsu don't help one's taijutsu stat.
Taijutsu is about your skill with hand to hand fighting. If we accounted for other things like strength and speed, Sakura's taijutsu stat should be higher, and Naruto's should have been higher thanks to the Kyuubi, and Kakashi should just have a 5 given how talented he is, and he has the Sharigan, and he can open at least 1 chakra gate.
If anything, those tenticles are part of Kakazu's ninjutsu stat, which is a 5.
He was strong, but he has no where near the strength required to yield a 5 in strength I think. He does not have Tsuande type strength.
As for his speed, again, he was fighting Kakashi while Kakashi was already injured and fatigued, how would those not affect Kakashi's speed? Not to mention Kakashi had to keep in the back of his mind that he had to protect the others, he couldn't simply just go all out.
Sakura doesn't have that great speed or skill in it...and Naruto's clearly gotten better.Quote:
Again...skill in regards to Kakashi. He's clearly more than capable, though
They're part of his body now. He just used a forbidden jutsu to implant them once upon a time.Quote:
Kakuzu can heft around grown men like ragdolls, knock down enormous temple gates, tank swords to the face and exploding tags and look like nothing happened.Quote:
Tsunade level strength? No. Very strong physically, yes
I would appreciate if you would stop ignoring some tiny details:Quote:
1. Kakashi was not 'injured' there. If he was, Hidan would have killed him. He avoided the Fuuton Asugai.
2. Kakashi was 'fatigued'...yet we ignore Kakuzu had also used an Asuugai and iron body and had no chance to rest in between his last battle, the Bijuu sealing and this incident? Kakuzu has better stamina, sure, but you don't suddenly get to say someone's weaknesses don't exist. Most of the attacks Kakashi used that sapped his stamina were ones Kakuzu had forced him to use. Especially as Kakuzu had to worry about a talented tactician and two other Chuunin as well as having to bail Hidan out at one point.
3. Not a single one of Kakashi's techniques are so massive in AoE that he had to worry about harming his comrades, who did a substantial job helping him out. Shikamaru set Kakashi up to take out Kakuzu's first heart, got Hidan out of there and Choji was able to also distract Kakuzu and prevent a revival for a brief time.
Can't agree with u that their sharingans don't aid in their taijustu, it doesn't just make sense... Kakuzu's hand to hand combat was on par with some1 that had the sharingan and still beat him so why can't his taijustu be a 4.5 at the least...
He doesn't have tsunades strength but he has the strength to tank people like chouji's hits without any worries... Nobody has the strength of tsunade and she is in a league of her own but using that logic is fail... Itachi's genjustu prowness is unsurpassed yet others have a 5 in it, do we say because they're not on itachi's level then they should be lower?...
As 4 his speed, i think lightsnake has explained it well so just keep in my that he had just finished a tiring ritual of three days with no rest... We could easily say he was also fatigued...