First i would like to point out that kyuubi is naruto's speciality. I can't see other characters being capable having that beast inside them nor use it wether they can controll it or not. Yamato pointed out that naruto must be special to be able to withstand kyuubi chakra at some degree.
I think the theory is that if the will of the bijuu is released than the bijuu transformation will occur, but if the will is filtered than no V1 or V2. The host only uses the chakra. Its only sufficient to only release the chakra when compining with sage chakra. Ofcourse if naruto can change the will of the fox, then he may also learn to release it and transform just like bee.
Ah, so if in subjugating the Kyūbi's will, Naruto kills it, then it's OK?Quote:
Right. It required Itachi's power.Quote:
Unless Kyūbi dies in the process. Because then all Naruto will have is an immensely greater chakra pool, and possibly a new technique. And if the Kyūbi is dead, then Naruto will not literally be sucking power from anyone.Quote:
If Naruto masters the Kyuubi, he is taking the Kyuubi's power as his own.
He isn't a leech, he is a conquerer that takes he spoils of defeating and humiliating his oponent.
It's like disarming someone and then using their sword, is said swordsman a leacher? Of course not.
If you go by that logic, every shinigami in bleach is a leacher that leaches power from his zanpakuto (except kenpaichi, who is a wannabe leacher).
Nope, Naruto's a leech, and it's this fact that is the major reason for my dislike of him. See, there's no amount of "blood, sweat, or tears" that Naruto can shed inorder to make the Kyuubi's power his own. We've been told how he can gain his power: by taking the chakra alone, without the mental energy. Not by beating him in a arm wrestling match or through enduring body-destroying training regimens. Not from Mortal Kombat either (he's fighting his own hatred. And in an illusion no less, lmao!).Originally Posted by hakuthehedgehog
Naruto simply needs to learn "a trick" to get all the spoils of the Kyuubi. No hard work needed. Its rediculous. The most hilarious part? His mastery of Sage Mode required no such "blood, sweat, and tears" either. You know what Naruto did to learn to summon natural energy? He sat still.
That's right. He sat still. Now, he balanced the chakra he had with the natural energy he was absorbing, sure. But the point stands that his hard work came down to how long he can ignore boredom. That's all fine and dandy, I'm used to it. It's just, if he's gonna get a new power that does the same thing as Kyuubi, atleast make it legitimately his power. But Sage Mode comes down to him relying on borrowed power still, just as he had his entire life. Now, instead of Kyuubi giving him a "get out of battle free" card, nature is doing it.
So, if it comes down to Naruto "borrowing" energy from nature, then "taking" energy from a Kyuubi he didn't subdue/defeat, then mixing it together to become Super Freeloader, who the hell here will be impressed? And most importantly, why?
EDIT: and Shinigami's zanpakuto is the manifestation of THEIR inner spirit. It's literally their soul manifested. Not the same thing. If you wanted to compare it to Bleach, compare it to Ichigo and the other Vaizards with their inner hollows. For the record, I dislike Ichigo exponentially more than I do Naruto.
Last edited by ninjabot; May 08, 2010 at 08:37 PM.
This is not a thread to discuss Sasuke and his EMS powers in. Keep this to Kyuubi Sage discussion like the OP instructed. Camparisons of EMS being an outside power source compared to Kyuubi is fine, but not in depth.
Look how bad he was beaten for hours in order to learn how to take Natural energy with the oil.
Naruto NEEDS to subdue the Kyuubi, not using a trick to take the Kyuubi's will out of the chakra, he has to overpower the Kyuubi's mind with his own, which is by no means an easy thing to do, otherwise Naruto would've done it by now, it is like overpowering an extremely powerful mind control over your body, that has the risk of death or losing lifespan.
If Jinchuriki control was as easy as you say it was, every Jinchuriki in history would be able to control their bijuus perfectly, but most of them can't.
So far, only 2 did, and they were hailed as genius.
If you disregard mental training, then by your logic, someone who cheats and puts all of the subjects in a tiny piece of paper to have a good grade is more deservant of having tha grade other than a student who sits in the classroom listening and studies only by sitting down and reading the book.
Last edited by hakuthehedgehog; May 09, 2010 at 02:41 PM.
No, he doesn't. The Kyuubi latches on to the hatred in your heart and uses it to force it's will over you. Subduing the Kyuubi comes down to removing the hatred in your heart. Not fighting it tooth and nail. And sure as hell not overpowering it. Just like the Sage training, all Naruto needs to do is sit still and become a blank slate. Such HARD training. Oh sure, he got clubbed in the head every now and then. Hardly as dangerous or lethal as fighting the 8 tails jinchuuriki or a whole room fool of Kage.Originally Posted by MegaX
It's bijuu control, not jinchuuriki control. Jinchuuriki are the ones holding the beasts within them. And they can't control their bijuu perfectly because not all bijuu are the same, not all jinchuuriki are the same, and quite possibly, not all of them have had the time to train that Yondaime Mizukage and Killerbee has. For one, the Kyuubi is pure hatred in physical form. It's been stated that he needs his hosts hatred inorder to grab hold of it and use it as a medium to take control. I'd say it's alot easier to ignore your hatred than it is to fight a beast of chakra the old fashioned way.Originally Posted by MegaX
Likewise, there's no where can you show me that it's the same for every bijuu. For all you know Hachibi, Yonbi, Ichibi, Rokubi...all of them had more easily manipulated bijuu.
Misenterpretation for the lose. My logic entails that gaining a game winning advantage with the least amount of effort (effort that can't even be CONSIDERED effort) is not respectable and shouldn't be praised. We'll use your flawed analogy:Originally Posted by MegaX
If you were about to take a test, and I studied for that test, but you had every answer to said test (gained by just SITTING STILL and waiting for them to be set on your desk), and you end up getting test scores far above mine, despite me studying day and night, losing sleep and drinking Mountain Dew non stop to stay awake...then you get no props, no respect, no honor from your achievements.
Now, before you bother mentioning Sasuke, killing your brother and sacrificing your sanity is most definitely a price. Far more costly then "sitting still". Going blind is far more of a price than "getting bonked on the head with a stick". Don't ever compare the Kyuubi to the Mangekyou Sharingan if you want to be taken seriously.
Sage training is not just standing still, it is standing perfectly still while gathering a perfect amount of chakra from the nature and molding it, and that is no simple task, otherwise Jiraya, a genius in his own right, would've perfected it.
Even the elder frogs, who are 900 years old, can't gather sage chakra as quickly as Naruto, which implies that is a very hard a delicate thing to do.
And Kyuubi control is not just leaving away all the shreds of hatred (which is a hard thing to do by it's own right as we can see with Sasuke), it is also about controlling the Fox's immense chakra.
While this may sound easy, it is not, as it requires even better chakra control, especially if you try and mix it with Sage mode, because the more chakra you have, the more Sage chakra you have to take from the Nature and the more time it takes to balance the chakra while controlling an obnoxius chakra and stading perfectly still at the same time.
Jiraiya wasn't the main character of the series. And when was Jiraiya ever called a genius? And really, you have to stop blowing out of proportion this whole "Sitting still is seriouz bizniz" stuff. You sit still and the energy goes into YOU. All you do is make sure it's not so much that it overcasts your innate energy. And the majority of ninja out there have much better chakra control than Naruto. He simply was lucky enough to be born with a large chakra supply.Originally Posted by hakuthehedgehog
Tell me, who would've mastered Sage Mode faster: Sakura or Naruto?
Yes it is. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/490/11/Originally Posted by hakuthehedgehog
Take the chakra without taking the will. By having a strong will, free of hatred. So yeah. That IS all it takes, as per the manga scan.
Oh, I know what it takes to mix them together. That doesn't change the fact that neither resource is exclusively his. Be impressed with using someone else's strength as your own. Doesn't matter to me. I for one, know better.Originally Posted by hakuthehedgehog
There's a good chance that Naruto's Natural chakra pool being so huge and constantly growing over time from Kyuubi that is the main reason he was able to perfect Sage mode, I imagine that the less chakra you have the harder it is eventually to the point of being impossible.
So someone like Kakashi would either not be able to even attempt it, OR he would have to get it right on the first go or become a frog etc.
I don't think we'll see much of Kyuubi Sage Naruto. Sage Mode is basically the same as Kyuubi mode, but not as powerful or longreaching, and it's safe for allies and the user itself. Kyuubi mode is just more dangerous.
If anything, Kyuubi may come into play while Naruto's in Sage Mode when genjutsu is being cast or is cast upon Naruto. Kyuubi Sage to me is like, putting an iPhone in a Droid phone. There's some differences, but both are mostly the same. Both can be used together to overcome some weakness to its user, but otherwise both may not be as necessary.