Based on what you have seen from the "best"
Uchihas would you have killed them out of fear? or would you have tried to reason with them?
side question: if you were asked to kill your family in fear of total war could you?
Last edited by Kaiten; June 03, 2010 at 06:37 PM.
No and No ....
It is like those questions: if you knew killing an infant would prevent a war later on, would you do it?
The problem is, if you abandon your values ... then is what you're trying to protect really worth saving?
I believe it was Benjamin Franklins quote .. but it went something like this:
"Those who would forfeit liberty for their lives deserve neither"
Hence what was wrong with Danzou, and why he was not fit to be a Hokage. He would be so fanatical and absolute in his protection of Konoha, governing from paranoia and fear, that there wouldn't be anything left of Konoha worth protecting when he was done.
i would have destroyed them i would have kept the children alive and not let them know what happened but the adults that knew what they were doing would have to die surely the children would have a choice of being good or evil when they grew up if they became evil i would kill them aswell maybe put a seal on them that i can activate if they ever turned evil
There is no good and evil in war....
The same things happens alot in the real world aswell
Africa: would you annilhate 1 village to save others, would you kill a dictator in order to save a whole country?
Asia: Would you utterly destroy a village in order that the whole world can live in luxury or survive, Would you destroy Opium farms in order to save millions but turn a whole country in a mess?
Perfect example where as there is no good or evil you kill people to prevent people from dying.
Personaly I would choose to kill the people in order to save more people, then again my perception is clouded in this matter and so would be the case with most people who ever joined the military.
1. I would have tried to reason with them or talk this over or sth. I think Hiruzen was the man in that aspect. I would even told them, that the best Uchiha would be the next Hokage, for the sake of peace between Uchiha and the rest of the village. I think it was possible after Madara left the village, IMO. And if Hiruzen knew very well Itachi, he would have a perfect candidate for that job.
2. Hard question, I don't know what I would do with such "info". For instance, I would not be exactly 100% sure that "this fear" is something certain, it would be a suggestion, I would try to change that "fear" of others. If I would knew that my family is really trying to bring upon war <like Itachi's case for example>, I think I would try to talk with them first <I think Itachi didn't do that, the only thing and the only one instance he did sth was shouting at the Uchiha members who came to accuse him of murdering Uchiha Shisui>. If that wouldn't help, in Narutoverse I would kill them <but its simple to say and write such stuff, heh>
I think it all depends on how much of an impact this coup d'etat would actually have upon the innocent people. If I were in Itachi's situation, I wouldn't give a crap about the Senju, the village, or the Uchiha (aside from those dearest to me)... only the innocents who had absolutely no hand in creating the situation everyone is currently in.
If the coup d'etat was just an exchange of power at the death of ninja, and wouldn't lead to tyranny, I wouldn't bother.
If, however, my clan was somehow an apparent figurehead of complete evil and would lead the world to ruin, then, at the very least, I may want to try.
1 -first of all , i dont believe uchiha massacre had anything to do with protecting konoha at all .its true that there was a possibility for war but if the third believed it could be solved through talking and understanding (for he is wiser than any1 we saw so far) i too believe it was possible . it was just the trick danzou used ,to clear the obstacle in front of him which is uchihas .
i think its already clear that danzou's true intention was never to solely protect konoha . he wanted to gain control of the power for himself from the beginning and everything he ever did was serving to that purpose only .
who knows maybe he already had it all planned in his mind to collect sharingans and maybe this was the strongest reason for why he pushed so hard on this decision.
2- it depends.. seriously .. if some day i find out that my sweet little mom is building a nuclear weapon hidden in the cellar and she is aiming to kill billions of people with it ,i cant tell how could i respond to that situation
- imagine i have a gun in my hand and she is about to press the button .. (forgive me mom,really, its ugly of me to ever imagine something like this) ,who knows maybe i may pull the trigger
if you really look from itachi's perspective where he lived through a bloody war ,i cant say his decision is impossible
but i must add, killing every1 including children is just senseless .killing innocent people to protect other innocent people is just out of the way
Last edited by shinsengumi; June 04, 2010 at 08:04 AM.
For the recorded, Sarutobi did try to talk with the Uchihas. They just wasn't having it. Anyway, I would kill their clan in order to keep the peace. And if I had to keep Sasuke alive, Then I would have had his memories of the incident sealed in order to give him a normal life.
As for the side question, Probably not but I think it depends on who the war would involved and how strong they were. If it would have causes enough destruction, I would have had no choice.
just a small correction, Sarutobi did not talk to the Uchiha. he wanted to, but was denied the request by his advisors and Danzou. let me quote myself from another post.
in any case, the theme of the story is Naruto's stubbornness to never give up. his answer to Itachi, about saving Konoha and Sasuke, changed Itachi and made him realize that things could have been different had Itachi not conformed with the norm. Itachi saw what he could have been, what he could have done, in Naruto. that is why, like Tsunade or other characters, he chose to believe in Naruto. if were to go by this theme in the manga, we know that the whole mess could have been avoided. despite it having already passed, the fact that Sarutobi even tried for talks, makes it clear that Itachi's actions weren't necessary.
nonetheless, the decision was made by Konoha, through its advisors which haven't been held accountable, and Danzou had even been made Hokage. Konoha will have to be held accountable for its actions. Personally, I think that the massacre was a stupid decision. why destroy your strongest clan, one that virtually guarantees insurance against the Bijuu, which you stupidly distributed to other hostile villages? each Uchiha had that potential to become insurance against any attack, like the one Sunagakure pulled with Shukaku. it's true that Konoha has the Kyuubi, but until now they couldn't even control it, and even if they do, there is always the risk of it breaking free from its jinchuuriki. even the Sharingan, itself, is the best kekkai genkai we've seen to date and is a terrible thing to waste. the Uchiha clan was basically the main force of military power for the village, based on what we've seen from the other shinobi. if you were to take out the Hokage from the time period, do you think Konoha even has any ninja without the sharingan capable of protecting the village? the only ounce of power the village had was Kakashi. the Sannin left the village and had to be asked to come back. even then the village had no other ninja on the level of Akatsuki or the other Kage level shinobi in the world.
do you see any country destroy its own military power? other villages like Kumogakure, pride themselves, boasting their power. they collect techniques and amass power to become even more stronger and stable. does it make sense to anybody, why a country would destroy its own military power? do you see a nation just dump the latest of their technology into the ocean or give away nuclear weapons for free? seriously, I frustrate myself with the thought that maybe, at least the children could have been spared. I don't even care if they were brainwashed by Root, as long as the Uchiha survive and serve Konoha, they'd take the village up a notch from its pathetic state right now. right now, I'm liking Kumogakure, which unlike Konoha, values its strength and isn't stupid enough to destroy it. Konoha sacrifices its military power, whether it may be the Uchiha clan or Hyuuga Hizashi, for the sake of peace. Kumogakure threatens war over a single one of its ninja, like the chief ninja during the Hinata incident, even if it is their fault for the mess. Konoha sacrifices its own people, claiming them to family, while Kumo fights for every single one of their garbage. does anyone see the hypocrisy and twisted morals here?
Last edited by kisame123; June 04, 2010 at 02:11 PM.
This is a discussion that has been going on for years in RL. It's the classical showdown between deontological ethics (where the consequenses aren't considered, and "the right choise" is the focal point) and utilitarianism (where actions are judge based on the principle of "the greatest good for the greatest number of people").
An example which show-cases the difference between the two could be:
You travel back in time to 1938, where you find Hitler drowning in a puddle. Do you save him, or leave him to die?
If you believe in deontological ethics, you would without a doubt save his life, where as a person who believes in utilitarianism would leave him to die.
Hope I'm making sense xD
I sort of agree with Danzo when he said Sarutobi was soft. A lot of things happened when he was hokage, he let a lot of things happen. Especially thing he let the elders do. The destruction of Uchiha, Danzo's root, Oro escaping. Tsunade puts down her foot at least. Minato would have never let the Uchiha betray the leaf or have made Itachi kill his family. Minato seems to be the type to have a plain for everything and Naruto being his son I dough he would let that happen.
I would never let the Uchiha leave they are powerful and they made up the leaf.
Oh i would have killed them their is such a thing as betrayal and you never know when they might suddenly feel like what they want is their more important.
And i would never kill my family it would actually be best for the person with this intention not to ask me to do such a thing. Cause if they did soon as they turn around am going for the neck.
True, but that isn't really a fair description of the choices or scope of the argument.
Basically the question is: would you kill anyone who you know 'could' be dangerous in the future.
Would you sacrifice your own ethics and the humanity of yourself and your culture for the prospect of guaranteed safety? And .. once you start down that road, where do you draw the line?
That is how police states are formed. Which .. really .. is what Danzou wanted. And Danzous hypocritical agenda coincided with Tobi's mindless need for revenge on the Uchiha ... which seems to have led to the two of them splitting the collected eyes between them ... while Danzou was working with Orochimaru (and probably Kabuto as well), known enemys of Konoha at the time.
In the case of the Uchiha, there wasn't really a line. A little girl bringing flowers home to her mom would have met the same fate as Sasuke's father.
That's just fanatical genocide and power hungry greed, not precautionary measures for public safety.
3rd Hokage tried everything in order not to have them killed. I think I'll go with his choice. Try to find an alternative.
Hmmmm, I think this one is an arguement of degrees.
A better question to compare to the uchiha massacre than killing your own family to stop a war would be this....
If you knew that a rival country was about to attack you would you attack them first or would you wait for a clearer morale justification for your attack and let them kill a bunch of your civilians first. People get too hung up on them being a "family" or clan when the question is more about a group of people whom you are as certain as you can be without it hapenning that they're going to attack you.
What I described above is a pre-emptive strike. You could say that's what was done to the Uchihas.
As far as killing all of them goes.... if you are at war you tend to continue fighting until the enemy can no longer harm you. In the Naruto world children can be as dangerous as adults. So if you knew they were powerful and would attack you could you let them live? OFC that all depends on whether or not you could be sure they would attack you and whether a certain level of military power would pose a threat to you or if your overwhelming remaining power meant you could be more merciful.
Plenty of people have made justifications for pre-emptive strikes and for civilian casualties in wars and they aren't just the horrible dictators people assume did it. ALL sides did so in the 2nd world war, no-one was so morally righteous that they didn't.
As far as whehther i'd personally have killed the uchiha... not enough information in the manga by half to say. Although I can see the logic in killing a certain number of people so that a far larger number of people would be saved (since a civil war between the Uchiha and the reast of Konaha would surely have killed more people than the Uchiha massacre and, assuming they don't plan to roll over and die the rest of Konaha would have had to kill every Uchiha off in the end anyway.) I think i'd struggle to do it unless I could be SOOOOOO sure the Uchiha were going to attack NO MATTER WHAT.
On the other hand, if you are suggesting that there's no way you could ever kill people for something they only MIGHT do then this is again a far better moral dilemma than would you kill your family etc etc.
You are a trained sniper (just roll with it ) and someone who has threatened to kill you Mother (or insert your favourite loved one in here) and is near them with a gun and looks VERY angry. You have a gun and they are in your sights.... do you shoot them or wait until they've pointed the gun at them being unsure if you'd hit them in time or even until they shot (and possibly killed) your loved one first. If you'd shoot them before they fired you've just killed someone who is yet to actually do something meriting their death, after all, they might have been bluffing. On the other hand if you wouldn't shoot until they did i'm glad i'm not your Mother it's the answer I can only assume people would write down to prove a point. I can't imagine anyone would really play russian roulette with a loved one's life......... (I guess you can guess my answer to that one hehe )