We also don't know exactly when Nagato went from plain old Nagato, to summoning Gedo Mazo, to sticking chakra receivers into bodies and controlling the remotely, to restoring dead peoples souls and becoming Rinnegan expert-ish. But it's possible that he couldn't save/control a dead body at that point, much less several.
It's quite possible that Nagato didn't control 6 bodies, or didn't have all of the summons, or the any of the things we saw during the Jiraiya vs Pain and Naruto vs Pain fights.
Maybe he did Chibaku Tensei on Hanzo and sent him into low earth orbit. :-P
Last edited by dilated_junkie; August 13, 2010 at 05:00 PM.
^ Point. I hadn't thought much about that, but:
We do know that Nagato lost use of his legs due to an injury from Hanzo, and it was immediately after that he summoned Gedo Mazo, and that Hanzo survived the initial assault. When Nagato went after Hanzo, he was already controlling Yahiko's body at the very least. When we hear how Pain destroyed all of Hanzo's family/relatives/former clients, etc, we're shown Yahiko's body, and not Nagato's.
I believe that after he summoned Gedo Mazo, he never participated directly in battles anymore, and I also believe that Konan was the only person to ever see Nagato's real body. It's part of the mystique of a "god" after all to never be seen afterall.
But, it does make sense that he would evolve and eventually learn to control all six bodies...and thinking about it, no doubt there was plenty of experimentation involved in learning how to properly implant all of the chakra receivers into the bodies and use them. For all we know, maybe each "path" needs a ninja with a particular elemental chakra or something like that.
Last edited by jsing992; August 13, 2010 at 05:15 PM.
I don't think it's as cut and dry as this: Pain has the Rinnegan, is super ninja/god-like being from the start of Yahiko's resistance clan formation. There had to be some sort of learning curve. At some point he had to figure out the chakra receiver thing, use that to steal/control summons and control dead bodies, learn about the 6 different abilities and/or split them among each body, etc. Did he have control over all this when he fought Hanzo? In my mind he almost had too in order to kill Hanzo and all his 24/7 bodyguards.
It would be cool to know exactly how many years after their initial meeting that the Hanzou vs Pain battle was. Something tells me that there would have been more than Pain just straight up owning the fight. With Hanzou escaping during their first encounter at the first sign of trouble, why would he have stuck around if he was in trouble during their "final" battle?
Some of these things just don't totally add up. But it could just be unexplained things by Kishi....and it's not like I expect some flawless story, especially when people like me are always analyzing his manga to the nth degree.
Well, if you consider the ability to use and master all six elements from the age of ten a "god like power", then yeah, he did have it. As far as Gedo Mazo and the abilities that it grants him, and all of the summons and other jutsu he used, that would have taken plenty of time to master.Quote:
Honestly though, Nagato would have the advantage going into the fight. Since he wouldn't have directly participated in the battle, Hanzo wouldn't have been able to recognize him/be scared of his abilities. Most likely, he would have been Yahiko (who he may recognize) or another one of Pain's bodies, but he wouldn't be able to recognize Nagato was controlling the bodies.
If so, all he had to do was get in range and use his whole instakill technique where he sucks out their souls. Nagato - 1, Hanzo - 0.
A lot of things don't add up, which is annoying for sure, but there's a lot that Kishi wouldn't take the time to try to explain. The amount of details we learn is directly proportionate to the importance of that character. If Hanzo was shown to have had a bigger role, we'd have learned a lot more about him.Quote:
With what we know, he can sadly be written off as a catalyst to draw out Nagato's true abilities. Blah. =/
But, there's always hope.
Here in my country, many people thought like u too, just because of this last chapter of Anime.
And just minutes ago, I said my opinion on a topic about it.
Here that I wrote.
13/14 Years before the start of the series: 3rd Ninja War. While in the Kusagakure, Minato and his team succeeds, destroying the kannabis's bridge, cutting the route supliment of Iwa.
In Amegakure, a small group of Ninja was getting success in resolving disputes without the need to fight. Hanzo, leader of the Village, was thinking that group could undermine his rule, and set an ambush for them. Yahiko, the leader dies and after this Nagato save Konan and summon Gendo Mazou and eliminates all Ninjas present, with the exception of Hanzo, that scape using a Shunshin no Jutsu.
????: Konoha is allied with Ame. We can check this later in the chuunin exam.
Beginning of the series: The Chuunin exam, which this year is in Konoha, have the participation of allied villages. Suna, Ame, Kusa, Taki and newly formed village of Sound
1-3 years after the beginning of the series: Ame that was undergoing a civil war, finally has an ending. Pain Akatsuki leader kills the leader of the Village, Hanzo.
And takes over the village.
The big problem is: people are thinking Hanzo is still alive, because they are guessing Hanzo died in this encounter. Hanzo dies in a period between the classic and Shippuden.
I know most of you know things that I wrote. But there are some people who let pass unnoticed some facts.
Always by those who only follow the anime.
hanzo and his whole family and every client that ever went to him is dead...at least thats what the manga says about it.
Hey all I have to refer back to the manga but I remember Nagato killing everyone and then striking Hanzo but I can't remember if he actually killed him in the flashback. Also if Hanzou is really that bad ass maybe he really did escape but rumors would say that Pain their God killed Hanzou and brought peace. At some point he was still making deals with Danzou sharing sharingans? I hate the idea of more sharingan conspiracies but we all know Kishi loves that #. Then he disappears and betrays Danzou using Sasuke. To hide evidence. This means that Danzou could be Kabuchimaru's 6th zombie? Which would be the reason Hanzou/Tobi freaked for a second if zombie Danzou spills his secrets?
And Madara was dead too according to the manga... until he came back...
So, I wouldn't simply throw that theory away because Hanzou was "said" to be killed by Pain.
Exactly. Also if Tobi is anyone but Madara who can you honestly think can be Tobi out of who we know now? I don't want it to be obito..not getting into that. Not his bro because what's the fun in that? Oh its not Madara but its still an Uchiha from way back then. I can't fathom anyone who can still be alive without some stupid reason we thought he was dead and at the same time be hyped up. Hanzou was said to be extremely powerful. Also in cahoots with Danzou? Scary. Also if Danzou is the 6th zombie and Tobi is Hanzou, it makes a bit of sense how Kabuchimaru could have been on to Hanzou and Danzou's secret alliance, being that not only was Kabuto originally from Konoha but Danzou did make deals with Oro...
Kishi can literally make "Madara" whoever the fuck he wants. lol And guess what? We'd have to accept it. It's called retconning and he's done it a few times before.
Nagato killed Hanzo to take control of Amegakure, that's why Pain is the leader of the village. He infiltrated Hanzo's base despite the intense security and easily killed him, then killed all of his family members, clients, supporters, and so on, until there was nobody left. That's how Pain established himself as the leader of the village. This is all explained.
Hanzo is just a minor flashback character who wanted to retain control of Amegakure, he is not a major villain. Why would he be the leader of Akatsuki? What sense would that make to the narrative of the series? Naruto has no connections with Hanzo, and neither does Sasuke. The only person who would benefit from a fight against Hanzo, narratively speaking, is Nagato, and Nagato already killed him. Madara is currently the only logical "final boss" for Naruto and/or Sasuke.
Last edited by Suzaku; August 17, 2010 at 10:34 AM.
This was pretty much my assessment that Hanzou died during the timeskip. As we saw ninja from Ame during the chunnin exam but they looked to be traditional Rain ninja. Pain's faction cross out the village symbol on their headband.
In my eyes obviously after Yahiko died Nagato still didnt know about all his abilities otherwise he would have simply brought him back to life. He spent his time developing his power and then met up with Tobi in pursuit of furthering his interest. Nagato had to secure the Rain village because Akatsuki's goals of gathering the Bijuu was coming close and he didnt have time for distractions. Thats when he made his move during the timeskip to settle the score with Hanzou.
Also after seeing what Pain did in Konoha its not hard to imagine what took place in Amegakure.
I can't completely disagree with Nagato "killing" Hanzou (or at least taking control of Ame) during the timeskip, but I dont think that's how it happened. I think this happened after the 9-tails attack and before the start of the actual series....at some point between the 9-tails being sealed in Naruto and the start of the Chuunin exams.
Really my only defense for my opinion is that Akatsuki was already formed and active during the first part of the series (when we first are introduced to Itachi and Kisame). And Orochimaru already left Akatsuki during the first part of teh series. So IMO, Nagato killed Hanzou and Co using eyes, "Madara" takes notice and manipulates Nagato, They form akatsuki, and do the money making scheme for a few years, Oro leaves, and the NAruto series starts.
Just my opinion, but I do think if Hanzou is dead that it happened prior to the start of the series.
Honestly I'm not trying to be an a$$ or anything....but I already completely understand that the manga states (from another ninja's explanation during Jiraiya's infiltration) that Pain killed Hanzou.....nobody else has to post that anymore....there are already links to the pages in fact. My argument goes beyond what one unreliable ninja talks about who wasn't even around for the fight.
This question is more for the people that understand that things aren't always as they seem. Like THM Nindo pointed out.... Madara was killed by the 1st Hokage already, and Itachi killed the Uchiha by hiimself and to test his powers.....and I could list more examples.
I'll agree with most of you that I don't think this will be the twist at the "end"....but I'm not getting much proof that it's completely impossible.
Last edited by dilated_junkie; August 18, 2010 at 02:20 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Exactly, we were led to believe that Naruto was the first jinchuriki, led to believe Madara didn't die against Shodai, TOLD that Itachi killed his clan for a test, shown Kisame died. Yet people say it as fact that Hanzou was killed by Nagato. When that Ame genin told Jiraya he spoke of Pain as a God. Why? Because he saved them from Hanzou, Nagato killed everyone but Hanzou that fateful night, who knows exactly how things went down from then? Even if Ame ninjas were in the Chuunin Exam, they were different factions at the time correct? A civil war can do that.
Also the Ame genin recited Hanzou's death in a flashback full of shadows, (I believe.) So..yeah very unreliable. What I'm trying to say is, that genin's statement is unreliable and for that Hanzou alive is very plausible...and even if that statement was reliable...still very plausible for Anzou to live in this manga.
Plus I said it before, Kishi displayed Hanzou as a bad ass! Dude shunshin'd out from Nagato very calmly and he's kicked the Sannin's ass! I'm sorryidk if Hanzou was this bad ass just to hype up Pain's power level.
I can see Hanzou being Madara only because I don't think we need a new leader twist. Also there better be something freaking amazing under Madara's mask or its someone we know. Everyone aiive now that I can think of wouldn't suit being "Madara". I even like the idea even more that Hanzou created the monster Pain...then manipulated him and used him! Even more sinister...sharingan implant very possible with Danzou's partnership.
I don't know Hanzou's goals so..that allows room for a believable reason to conquer the world other than pitiful revenge or "peace" out of a guy who wanted revenge. Also allows more possibilities for who's the Zombie that Kabuto revived that could shock Hanzou/Tobi.
EDIT: in the thread 'History of Kirigakure" Poobert mentions how Madara was referred to as Mizukage by Kisame. Since later we learn Yagura the 4th Mizukage was corrupted or manipulated, by genjutsu perhaps that this may be Madara's influence. This may be that Madara was never a Mizukage, HOWEVER, if he was or wasn't, who was responsible for Yagura? Poobert suggests that its possible Danzou controlled Yagura to interfere with Akatsuki's plans and Konoha's protection.
I believe that wasn't the intention, I believe Danzou had the ability with Shishui's eye, as a matter of fact I thought of Shishui's eye when I learned of Yagura. So I'm going to take it a bit further and suggest that Danzou was working with Akatsuki (Hanzou/Tobi. Controlled the Mizukage for Akatsuki's benefits. Then at some point Tobi conspired to betray and kill off Danzou or they had a fall out with each other due to each's own agenda with Sasuke? Tobi possibly wanting Danzou's cooperation in controlling Sasuke yet Danzou refused? So Tobi took matters into his own hands and claim Shishui's eye himself?
Last edited by Thekid90; August 20, 2010 at 12:56 PM.
Long time member first time poster
I found this theory extremely interesting, because it seemed odd for a character as strong as Hanzou to be introduced and then killed off so fast.
im not sure if this helps the theory or not, but Manga chapter 453
Tobi/Madara states that Pain was supposed to save his Jutsu for him, Does that not mean that Pain had already killed him? Its been stated that Pain killed Hanzou....
I hope i didnt break any rules about posting links and what not
and please be gentle ripping me apart