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So on a scale of one to ten, how would you rate Madara's skills as a mastermind?
Does he have a good master plan and is he doing a good job of moving it forward?
Is he powerful enough?
What were his greatest mistakes and most brilliant moves?
(Would you have rather seen Pein be the true mastermind?)
Personally I'd put him right around an 8-ish. Mostly because I think revealing the truth about Itachi to Sasuke could have really backfired on him >.> but other than that, he's doing pretty well for himself, especially surviving for so long.
(Is he really Madara?!? )
As a mastermind, I would rate him 8 or 9. It was not his plans that failed him, its his opponents that have proven more resilient and stronger for the occasion. For example, in the recent chapters, his plan was not defective. Minato and Kushina stopped him and Kyuubi (a tool in his plan) by sacrificing themselves. I doubt the masked man had thought about it or had a backup plan for it.
Is he powerful enough? I can't answer it properly since I am not sure about his current power-level. His biggest weapon seems to be his time-space tech., in another word you can say speed. Minato proved to be faster and was able to land a hit. On that basis, I'd say he may not be the most powerful guy around.
I don't think he made a big mistake that had cost him. Brilliant moves, luring Sasuke to his side, alliance with Kabuto, attacking Konoha and Kushina at opportune moment, I guess you can call them brilliant in some way.
No I would not want see Pain/Nagato as true mastermind. Reason being, the masked man is consistent as a character. Nagato was turned around by Naruto in short span of time, and I believe such inconsistent character wouldn't fit for me as a true mastermind.
I think around an 8...he showed that he can manipulate almost everybody, he can foresee events long ahead before happening...he has many strings available in different countries, so I think he is a good mastermind...but as thorn said his opponents were the ones that managed to kill his plans...and I'm afraid this time his insight is wrong about Sasuke, and of course Naruto as well, but I think he pulled the short end of the stick with Sasuke, as I think he will be killed by Sasuke eventually...I think when Sasuke will know what power does Madara has at his disposal, like the bijuus and gedo mazo, he will betray madara, and that's when he will die...or at least something along that road...I wouldn't mind if there would be a 3 way battle, like alliance vs. madara vs. sasuke...and maybe Kabuto stirring up stuff...
So and 8, because he chose someone that will end up too strong for him to handle
I think let's say madara for canon's sake for now...
Pain was not a true mastermind...he had a good plan to save the world from war, and he had some personal issues with Konoha...Madara is more of mastermind, because he used other's goals to get what he wants...I think when he saw that Konoha can put up a resistance against him if he attacked directly, he chose to use others to do his dirty work
Last edited by benelori; August 14, 2010 at 01:42 PM.
We might see Kisame beeing the true mastermind :P
Ok, unlikely theory. But he's a mysterious guy and beastially strong, who knows what he really is?
Hmm well Madara certainly is strong and intelligent and not a rash guy, but I think we'll have to wait a little while longer to see how good he really is.
Biggest mistake might've been to challenge Senju Harashima and Minato after that. I'ld say his fight against Harashima was less of a mistake although it damaged him more, but his fight against Minato was somewhat of a waste.
His biggest accomplishment certainly is to gather so many incredibly strong guys in Akatsuki and make them doing what he actually wants. Specifically, to win Nagato for his cause.
Pretty much equal to that, the way he convinced Sasuke. Remarkable. Although that might turn out to be his biggest mistake later on, Sasuke might become his downfall.
Last edited by Roflkopt3r; August 14, 2010 at 02:02 PM.
Madara gets a 10 from me as a true mastermind. He has set plans in motion, some of which have been 10+ years in the making. There are so many variables that could screw up his plans but he seems to mitigate these as successfully as one can, without being Aizen. :P I think what makes him a true mastermind is the mystery that surrounds him. He reminds me of Dr. Moriarty from Sherlock Holmes....you know his name but never see his face...makes it more diabolical.
i'd say 7, nothing to special, come on each one of you would do the same thing as he did if you had power such as his
I don't understand Madara at all. He's probably got more planned than we know about. Or at least I hope he does.
Ever since I found out about both his powers to warp anywhere he wanted and Zetsu's ability to create perfect clones right down to the chakra signature, I've been wondering why he is dorking around with the villages instead of just manipulating and controlling things at the Daimyo level.....or even higher. He could have done everything he has already done with akatsuki and could have had Bee and Naruto delivered on a silver platter whenever he wanted.
That would be mastermind level right there. But I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and guessing that he's after something more that we don't know about. So instead of a 3, I'll give him a 6 and wait to see what Kishi has to reveal for us. He's a good bad guy with the almost blowing up a newborn and killing a woman immediately after labor, but a lot of what he does leaves me blanked.
I'd give him a five. The only reason he was able to get all the bijuu he had gotten so far was because the shinobi nations don't work with each other. He was afraid of Itachi. He took a giant risk with Sasuke. He knows that Kabuto has an ace up his sleeve (he knows Kabuto's trump card). He has been defeated time and time again. The only thing keeping me from giving him a lower score is the fact that he's careful. He hasn't done anything half-assed.
If you ask me, Orochimaru is a greater mastermind than Madara. Orochimaru succeeded in fucking up Konoha, in killing the 3rd, killing the 3rd Kazekage, taking Sasuke away, he still managed to cause Akatsuki trouble, he created his own village, still made his experiments, still had practically unlimited ties in every village and country. Orochimaru was able to move around and do whatever he wanted practically undeterred. The only thing that stopped him was Sasuke - and he was prepared for that. He was merely defeated and then sealed by Itachi's Susano'o.
I also argue that his gamble with Sasuke might have been necessary. We saw that he didn't tell him the whole truth, he told him the Kyuubi had attacked Konoha on it's own, but apart from that he might have told the truth (actually it's likely I think). What other way did he have to convince Sasuke than the way he used?
About Kabuto, he didn't have influence on Kabuto's developement. I don't think we can rate him on his actions with Kabuto until we see what comes from it.
Oh and Orochimaru isn't really a mastermind, he fought most of his battles on his own. As the previous poster already quoted, he "likes to see things in motion" and if they aren't, he sets them in motion. But he doesn't seem to necessarily plan alot.
If he holds a grudge against the leaf, he plans around a little, uses the sand village and then does the most important stuff on his own. He's not really much of a mastermind.
i would say we have yet to see all the thing he has done. something about how this whole series is playing out makes me think he is responsible for Nagato become pain. for all we know he founded mist. he has been thought dead most of the series so it would be interesting to see what he has been doing since then.
it would interesting if he fell into this role after meeting pain because he seems like before fighting the fourth he was like sasuke in that he did almost everything himself.
danzo was implied to have been working with orochimaru. so is orochimaru who took all the blame the master mind or danzo.
Last edited by jm; August 15, 2010 at 12:09 PM.
1. Mastermind skills? If only that, I will give him as well 8 - he's good mastermind, maybe even very good, but what I like about him: he's also a good manipulator. I know what Itachi said about Sasuke and colours, but to me it was brilliant how Tobi <I prefer to refer to him that way > made Sasuke to use Itachi's eyes despite not wanting them at the beginning What he achieved? He's pretty happy about what he did or what he is doing, even after Yondaime Hokage put him at bay with Kyuubi at his disposal, he didn't lose his calm attitude because of that. This shows <not only what he says> that he is the man of many plans, like Joker from TDK <especially when he was goofy Tobi xd>: "its all part of the plan", or in other words: he has always sth up his sleeve Yeah, 8 out of ten would be enough for him.Quote:
2. I think he is doing very well, though to answer that <especialy what's coming up ahead - war> I think it will be better answer it in the future. Why? I may come to be that Kyuubi incident was meant how it was done - Tobi just wanted to make Uchiha seem bad and to wipe them to obtain their eyes for example, and if this was his goal: he achieved that> For now I see only one flow in his plan: lack of raw power <powerful shinobi on his side> till Kabuto did ET ^^ <but like I said: we doesn't have info on that, its my guess>
3. Right now: yes. Before Kabuto entered on the scene: I had doubts
4. His greatest mistakes are - like in any shounen fighting title - disrespecting powerful opponent, like eg Minato.
Most brilliant moves? Manipulating Sasuke <BUT like I said: Itachi pointed its very easy, so.. yeah, nonetheless he achieved/es what he wants with Sasuke right now>
5. Hell yeah <but its only I don't like Tobi as a villain right of now; he was waaay better in retrospections :x>
btw. and remember: the greatest villain <I'm not talking about being mastermind xd> was Orochimaru xD
I would rate Madara an 8 as a mastermind. The main reason why I think Madara was defeated by Hashirama was because he was too impulsive at the time; he was seeking revenge and thus didn't think as clearly. But he learned from this and realized patience was the key.
Madara was able to exact revenge on Uchiha for turning their backs on him, whether he meant to or not. In fact, until he revealed himself personally, no one bar Itachi, Zetsu, Nagato, Konan and possibly Kisame knew who Madara was. I dunno when Kabuto realized Madara's true identity. But even after appearing in Konoha at least twice and freeing Kyuubi, no one knew there was someone behind the attacks. In a sense, Madara accomplished what he wanted and that was to free the bijuu and gain some kind of revenge on Konoha.
The way it looks like, Madara knew some Akatsuki would die. The problem is, he underestimated some ninjas. He didn't know or expect Minato to be so talented that he could injure Madara and throw a wrench in his plans. He didn't expect Naruto to be powerful enough to take out few Akatsuki or be able to change Nagato. However, he got Itachi and many dangerous shinobi to work for him. He took a risk and it paid off with Sasuke; he convinced Sasuke to get revenge upon Konoha for the destruction of Uchiha.
Out of every bad guy we've seen, Madara is still alive and kicking, if that is really him. If he didn't underestimate Minato and Naruto... maybe there'd be more Akatsuki alive, including Nagato, and Madara would have Kyuubi under his control. Even after Orochimaru attacked Konoha, it was rebuilt. After Madara freed Kyuubi/sent Nagato to get Naruto, Uchiha's destruction was imminent and Konoha was leveled.
Madara was able to manipulate both Nagato and Sasuke. Orochimaru wasn't.