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Well, after taking into careful consideration everything that's been said, I guess I can see your (everyone's) point. However, I still wouldn't rate Madara so high. Just because he has so many plans doesn't make him a mastermind. Granted, villains aren't supposed to always win, but if everyone was surprised when the "zombie twins" got defeated, they should've been more careful. Hidan lost because he underestimated Shikamaru. Kakuzu lost because he underestimated Naruto. Therefore, Akatsuki should've stopped underestimating Konoha. They learned their lesson, cuz Kisame is trying to escape and Madara appeared and saved Sasuke from the rest of Team7.
If Madara had done more than form Akatsuki, obtain Sasuke, and keep his identity secret for so long, I'd call him a mastermind. But his attack on Konoha pales in comparison to Orochimaru's. All he did was bide his time 'til Kushina was gonna give birth and then attack. He really didn't think past that. It was a half-assed plan. Apparently, he learned his lesson, though. So I wouldn't consider that attack a gem of a plan. All in all, I'd give him a 7/10.
he hasn't been a very competent mastermind so far. He failed pretty spectacularly against Minato, especially if he had been planning releasing the Kyuubi for long. Not to mention he derped around doing god knows what for the 16 years after that.
only for manipulating Sasuke like putty and for the lulzy Moon's Eye plan he's got going
- Now that I think about it, Madara's planning ability isn't all that great. Every plan he came up with could of been thought of by an average person. As far as manipulating Sasuke is concerned, the reason he was able to do that is because Sasuke is vulnerable. That's why Itachi wanted to kill Madara.
I give Madara a 5/10.
- I think Kabuto is the best mastermind so far. He's manipulating Madara and Konoha.
guys how do you know if him losing to minato wasn't on purpose.think about it,if he killed kushina then kyubi would be free.he never anticipated minato doing what he did.he gets a ten as far as a mastermind,he's lex luthor to superman,he's brainiac to the hulk.they might not always succeed but they drive our heros to new level,mentally,morally and phsycally.....
I don't see how Kabuto has proven better so far. What did he efficiently did to manipulate anyone?
He merged with Orochimaru, came to great power, found a few corpses and uses them to threaten/blackmail Madara.
That's a very direct approach and nothing which would require lots of planning so far.
If Madara had worked like that, he would've walked straight into the Bijuu and attempted to catch them. Where is the mastermind aspect of that?
Orochimaru however, got his arms sealed by Hiruzen, was absorbed by Sasuke, and was sealed by Itachi, who himself could have done the same with Madara, but didn't.
Sasuke took out Orochimaru, even if he wasn't up to fighting, whereas Sasuke couldn't even hurt Madara. Despite having no apparent power, Madara still got this far over the powerful Orochimaru, who's sealed now.
Also, as for preferring Pain being mastermind... to be honest, I would not. So far, Pain's come across as an idiot to me, due to the fact that he's been outsmarted few times in fights. He hasn't shown any kind of exemplary intelligence other than capitalizing on his Rinnegan. Madara has showed knowledge, whereas Pain's true strength lied solely on his power. I have not yet seen Pain managing to manipulate anyone the way Madara did... even he was apparently manipulated by Madara.
Though to be honest, I do wonder who's the better villain... Madara or Orochimaru?
I give him 10/10
he is a mastermind so his job is to mind-fuck everyone and not do battle himself
100% mastermind, let others do your work for you.
he could easily become kage if he joins any country
But on defense, Pain fought Naruto and not any other conventional fighter which thinks 2-3 moves ahead and unconventional moves but nevertheless, he fought naruto on almost or less than 50% with equal standing. if pain fought maybe other country, I doubt that they can handle him.
Last edited by elitefox; August 15, 2010 at 07:41 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Long story short, Pain simply didn't need to act as a mastermind and consequently didn't do so. Can't rate him on that. He also didn't seem stupid in general, just pursuing his goals using his power. There's nothing wrong with relying on power if a person has the required amount of it, and Pain defenitly had enough power.
I think Orochimaru had the "wrong goals" to act as a great mastermind. He rather had his little fun with toying with destinies. Clearly visible in the Guren/Sanbi part, where he predicted how things will go almost perfectly in a very very impressive way.
But his overall goal simply wasn't suited for him to be the number one mastermind. It was a way of study and raw power mainly.
However, if he was in Madara's place.... wow, hard to tell.
Orochimaru always was able to read people perfectly but always did little screwups which ruined everything in the end because he underestimated powerful motives like love, the will to protect others, etc. Such as in his fight against Sarutobi who was willing to give everything just to protect his village as good as possibe.
Dunno how far Madara does the same mistakes.
However, in questions of style I somewhat like Orochimaru better than Madara :P
Last edited by Roflkopt3r; August 15, 2010 at 07:42 PM.
- Kabuto hasn't proven to be better...yet. It just seems he has something big in store for us.
- Kabuto has shown to be pretty good at reading and manipulating people. He used all the right words to manipulate Kimimaro into capturing Sasuke. Also Kabuto was able to read Oro and find his true intentions really quickly: http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-...88-page-7.html, http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-...88-page-8.html
Last edited by En Yang Ji; August 15, 2010 at 09:20 PM.
I simply like Orochimaru better because he was psychotic. Even though that within itself is cliché as far as being a villain is concerned, I feel that Madara's plans and demeanor are even more cliché. Orochimaru was more entertaining because not only did he manipulate on a grand scale, he also got his hands dirty. Madara just wants to control the world. Orochimaru just wants to learn everything about the ninja world. That goal is much less jaded than Madara's "I will be like the Sot6P and rule the world thru the ultimate genjutsu.". Orochimaru is like Faust. He practically sold his soul to gain all the knowledge in the world, even if it corrupted him to the point of committing all the heinous acts he did. Orochimaru even scoffed at Akatsuki - knowing full well that they want him dead and they are the greatest collection of shinobi ever assembled. How bad ass do you have to be to spit in the face of Akatsuki in its prime? Granted, this isn't a comparison about badassery, and I'm probably off-topic, but I like Orochimaru better. Madara as a quote/unquote "mastermind" is still not plucking a chord in me. He's a great planner but he's no mastermind. At least that's what I believe .
9, he is like joker of batman. he is evil, he plays games, even his character as tobi. but he underestimates his enemies, that's why he loses. but i love him, he is one of my favorites.
I give Madara a 4/10. He is resilient but he is a repeat failure. He is also pretty boring. He doesn't really do anything except throw out Sasuke like a Pokemon and tell geezer stories. If he does something awesome, I will acknowledge him. His biggest mistakes were challenging Konoha during the reign of Shodai, and challenging Konoha during the reign of Yondaime. Each time he got wtfpwned and lost his pet.
there is a difference between villain and a master mind orochimaru is not a good master mind. he is a better villain then madara.
Danzo on the other hand. he seems to have been working with orochimaru, that how he got that arm and eyes. i would agree that he probably help orochimaru with the sand sound attack, probably hid like he did during pain's attack. Danzo is the master mind, he almost got away with it. but madara is the best master mind in the series.
think if terrorist stole 10,000 nukes that the kind of force he has with the seven beast. who knows what he was pulling with mist. it looks like he set up the uchiha to take the fall if he messed up. he seems to have used the fall of the uchiha to gain something just like danzo.
Last edited by jm; August 16, 2010 at 09:04 PM.
I'd say Shikamaru is arguably a better mastermind than all the villains in the manga put together....then again, Minato was even better than that. They can develop a plan in the midst of battle, and not only that, they can also pull if off almost perfectly. Of course, they are the ''good ones''....
- Now back on track, I'd give Madara an 8-8.5. The only reason I believe he lost against Minato was because he made the mistake of endagering Naruto and underestimating him too. That just gave Minato the rush he needed to step it up. I mean his plan was (on paper) fool proof. He released Kyuubi when the sealed was the weakest, the jinchuuriki should have died instantly (had it not been for Kushina's ''special'' chakra), and that caught the village off-guard because Minato had been extra careful making sure something like this didn't happen.
And this was before he became the ''bad-ass'' he is now, he recruited the strongest missin-nins out there to do his work for him....and what is even more surprising, is that, other than Itachi and Zetzu pretty much the rest of Akatsuki didn't know why they were capturing bijuus. If that isn't mastermind, then nothing else is.
And to top things off, he has a whole room full of sharingans, which we have no real idea how he got them. While Orochimaru never managed to get a single one....lol.
Last edited by kelv015; August 16, 2010 at 09:18 PM.
Actually pain was more a mastermind than Madara itself, Pain had his own goals and never let the guard down in front of Madara, as Pain never appeared in front of Madara with his real body, just in front of Konan who actually was his proxy, Pain didn't trust Madara at all, a fact of this.. is actually that he activated his rain, when Madara was leaving after their Meeting, Pain didn't trust Madara.
Did Madara use Pain, yes he did... but Pain wasn't an useful fool like Sasuke is, Pain driven force was Yahiko and not Madara or Uchiha's fate.
As for he being a Mastermind, he is really pathetic in the executions of these plans, before Pain used his rinne tensei to resurrect the rest of Konoha, he spoke about being patient, but after he found out about Pain's death and the use of rinne tensei from Pain, he spoke about accelerating the moon eye plan. His plans, to be honest I don't know what to think, it just doesn't feel like he will be able to execute them flawlessly as he has failed twice before, and his plan is not really far from what Danzou wanted to achieve, so I'm going to give him a 6 for the great effort. :P
Last edited by Alterno; August 17, 2010 at 05:40 PM.