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Irene just completely outclasses Galatea:
1. Irene could very well be a rank 1 for all we know. Scottie Pippin knows how Irene feels deep inside!
2. Irene's very fast (she got over in time to save Priscilla from getting decapitated by Teresa, parrying Teresa's beheading strike directed at Priscilla).
3. Irene's Quick Sword has a very high Attack Quickness (AQ). Even if I watch a boxer's shoulder (or even better his opposite leg or hips), seeing his incoming punch sooner than someone else who doesn't know these tricks, has nothing to do with whether my body can actually physically move fast enough to act upon it. It's the same with Galatea (If she can sense movement ahead of normal time) and even Teresa herself as well. Even Teresa's use of the PYS/ELYSA is way overblown and wrongly exaggerated in how useful it is. Yes, it is powerful as the manga says, ~"It's the ultimate technique against Yoma, Yoki releasing/using opponents, such as specifically Awakeneds", but you STILL need the power level to be able to move physically fast enough to take advantage of it!
Let's not forget that rank 4 Ophelia and even a rank 3 just like Galatea is, Sophia, both could NOT even see Irene's sword move! So, rank 3 Galatea, would not be able to just like rank 3 Sophia could not as well. Sophia knew well, that she didn't compare to Irene at all, that Irene completely outclassed her. So too, would Irene completely outclass Galatea.
Miria herself said that from rank 6 to rank 1, the gap between a rank to the next rank grows larger and larger.
And Galatea is not that fast, as she instead uses her Yoki Manipulation. We see that even Dauf is able to hit her, as her speed isn't that great. Galatea was much slower than Miata as well, though that is expected, lol.
Galatea had a hard time parrying Dauf's rods (which ARE shot fast+rapidly), but still surely Irene's Quick Sword is quicker yet, so how could Galatea than parry Irene's Quick Sword?
4. Irene IS powerful (strong) as well, as she sliced open the stone-paved ground when fighting against Teresa in town, lol.
5. And let's not forget how powerful the Quick Sword is as well, by using Clare with it, being able to slice up Awakened Ophelia's thick-huge Awakened snake body. Unfortunately we don't know how powerful Irene's Quick Sword is, other than being x2 as powerful as Clare's own left arm's Quick Sword, and we really don't know if that x2 (or x1/2, depending on who's perspective) is merely compared to Irene at No YR, lol.
6. Galatea's Yoki Manipulation would have NO EFFECT on Irene's "IRONCLAD-MIND", as well as Irene being too powerful (in terms of power level/Yoki) for it to work on her anyways.
at first I didn't think Galatea performed that great in the Miata+Agatha battle, but I was wrong, and now I do agree that Galatea performed very well... but Miata still performed even better, lol
I do entertain... that it might be possible... Galatea's hiding her increased power level... from everyone...
because her best performance (and using the most of her yoki/power level) was actually against Dauf back in the Witches Maw.
She was NOT fighting as hard against Agatha+Miata, nor especially seen in Rabona... needing to be saved against a weak AB from behind by Yuma... lol...
something is just not right... Galatea must be intentionally hiding and not using her full power level, at what increase it now has gotten since.
HOWEVER, Galatea does love Rabona... so why was she not releasing her Yoki to the amount she was against Dauf in the Witches Maw?
I think I might know the answer....
as much as Galatea loves Rabona and would gladly give her life for it and its people...
Galatea STILL CARES MORE ABOUT HER VANITY!
Over Galatea's dead body and the destruction of her beloved Rabona and its people, would Galatea NEVER let anyone see her "Ugly Face".
If you notice... Galatea only released her yoki to that extent, ONCE Clare was gone, lol... and had made sure to no longer have her "Ugly Face" when Clare+Jean returned, lol.
Galatea doesn't care if Dauf+Riful see her "Ugly Face", as they're monsters... but she'd NEVER NEVER NEVER let any human nor Claymore see her "Ugly Face", lol.
That's my theory anyways, lol
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 14, 2011 at 01:17 AM.
hmmm i have another match..
what if its the seven ghost who were sent to track down and hunt teresa? would they have a chance?
yeah i know clare is the little girl at that time... but lets just say it was a different lil girl. and the 7 ghost were sent by the org to hunt teresa down
Last edited by lolzasas; April 14, 2011 at 06:51 AM.
In Ophelia's case, Clare knew where Ophelia would strike but it applied only to a situation where Ophelia's sword would be steady. Once Ophelia started vibrating it, the movements became random and predicting the movement was impossible. It was especially difficult for Clare since she strongly relied on this technique but even very experienced fighters would be screwed unless they were Teresa.
I could use here an analogy. Measuring steady object (object that is in an inertial frame of reference) is no problem. You can use a measuring rule/tape and you will have your answer (more or less, observational error must be taken into account). But measuring a big rocket travelling at high speed is much more difficult and would require the knowledge of theory of relativity.
Anyway, I've written quite a bit on that topic here (go to the last part where I've shown pictures of Priscilla's unpredictable attacks). You will have another example of why PYS is overrated.
And here are some more arguments (skip to the last part also). Since I'm talking about Irene here, IMO her QS was as random as Ophelia's rippling sword since the arm went berserk and Irene was struggling to control it (which would result in vibrations just like in the rippling sword technique). Clare managed to control it better and maybe her version she could read but Irene's? Not a chance.
As for Ophelia releasing her youki, it was explained by her. She did it because she was excited after defeating Gonahl AB. Nothing more, nothing less. It's certain it wasn't because she was afraid of Clare. She was just enjoying her overwhelming power. You're suggesting here that Miria and Ophelia could sense Clare better than she herself could, which is ridiculous for many reasons (e.g. Clare was one of the best youki sensors there were and only Tabitha and Galatea were better AFAWK). Miria said that because it was either her hunch or she could sense that Clare is probing her which gave her that impression.
this video and this one.
The third link shows it the best. None of these are Irene vs. Galatea but since I consider Ophelia as a slightly better fighter than Galatea, by default Irene is much more powerful than her.
Of course that was said before Ilena even relised how powerful Teresa truely was. If she knew how powerful Teresa acturly was, then she would of forgotten about going after her in first place.Quote:
I can totally imagine the scine, I'll write about it after I have more time to fool around later.
Last edited by Khorr; April 14, 2011 at 10:39 AM.
The only way I could see them succeed would be to kill Teresa in her sleep (Miria would have the highest chances with her cloaked version of phantom). In every other scenario they would be obliterated. But to be honest, if Teresa wouldn't hear/sense them coming it would mean she wasn't experienced fighter since even human would be able to kill her in her sleep.
I pretty much agree with everything else you say besides this. Her Yoki Manipulation has nothing to do with her opponent's minds. The way I see it Irene's Flash Sword isn't about brute force (which is needed to overcome Galatea's manipulation), it's about swinging a sword really really really fast. But Irene would probably catch on quick and use regular sword strikes to beat Galatea.Quote:
If you would click on the links I've given you would know you're wrong.
Galatea's manipulation technique would be worthless against Ophelia. Galatea's version of manipulation is only good against stupid opponents. Those of average intelligence or above (and Ophelia certainly belongs to that group even though she was crazy) can see through her trick immediately like Riful, Agatha or Clarice did. It's a flashy technique but in combat it doesn't prove to be useful in a long term. But let me bring in some facts. End of volume 9, Riful's analysis (10sigh's translation):
"Her specialty is the reading of youma energies down to their most miniscule details. Thus she can control her opponent's movement by aligning her own youma energy with this. But even if I say control, it's not quite as awesome as it sounds. It only works by attacking the enemy in unguarded moments, exploiting weak points in his consciousness and tampering with it, using just a little of her own youma energy. That means even if she can manipulate the enemy's movement, stopping the attack itself is nearly impossible. Even more so if he is more powerful. That's why it's necessary to confuse him as a first step. While the enemy is negligent and unfocused, she shows him many little tricks and thus creates doubt. This is where my part comes in. An attack executed with doubts about whether it will hit or not is naturally far from ones full potential. That's why when a stronger opponent launches an attack with full force and no doubts whatsoever, even if it looks the same, there is absolutely nothing she can do."
BTW, notice that against Duff Galatea couldn't run using this technique (unless she was retarded and preferred to wait for Riful to arrive or Duff blocking the exit). Most probably it was needed for her trick to work, by walking casually and showing no signs of anxiety she made Duff further doubt his own abilities. It was necessary because with every use the chance of discovering the trick increases and even Duff would overcome it at some point. In his case he probably wouldn't understand it but become so pissed that he would go all out and further manipulation would be impossible because there would be no "unguarded moments" when the youki would flow with maximum efficiency.
(...) We know that it's not necessary thanks to turtle AB who was leagues above Galatea. Volume 10 p. 28, Clare's words: "You can't even compare Galatea's version to it", however Clare and Undine managed to overcome it. You're not suggesting here they were stronger than this AB, are you?
Clare using a weaker version of QS managed to overcome much stronger version of youki manipulation so Galatea wouldn't even stand a chance (especially against Irene). QS is a berserk technique where you strike with all you've got, hence manipulation would be useless. And with irene's intelligence ands strength she wouldn't even need it to defeat Galatea.
Last edited by Goral; April 14, 2011 at 02:24 PM.
err, sorry WSK, I didn't quite explain what I meant and said it wrongly, here's what I meant to have said/explained:
my understanding of Yoki Abilities:
Power Level comes into play. If Galatea (with her Yoki Manipulation) has a greater power level than her opponent does, than her Yoki Manipulation will be effective, and the greater the difference the more effective it would be.
Now if Galatea's power level isn't greater such as against Dauf, than she has to use a "trick/cheat/loop hole", and that is mental distration (we see the same with Raftela against Miria, the Org had the TATs distract the too powerful Miria, in order for Raftela to than be able to use her Yoki Manipulation abilities), which Galatea does via verbal taunts and in using teamwork' attacks with Clare+/Jean.
So this is how Irene's "IRONCLAD MIND" comes into play in detriment against Galatea.
I don't think your post fully excludes the possibility of the Rippling Sword as a physical technique because of these reasons:
Clare could merely have been sensing Ophelia's (internal) body movements as that is exactly what the PYS/ELYSA does, while the actual Rippling Sword remains physical (no Yoki involved or flowing into it), as you pointed out, Clare sensed the motion of the strike by Ophelia with her Rippling Sword, but Clare couldn't fully parry it.
Ophelia releasing yoki, doesn't mean that she's releasing yoki specifically for her Rippling Sword, as she could simply be releasing yoki for herself, her own body movement and power and such.
We know that not all sword techniques require yoki, and Ophelia's Rippling Sword could still be one of them, I believe still.
some quick questions, that I don't know the answers to, that I'd be appreciative if someone could answer for me (preferably with source to prove/verify it, and for me to have for future reference as well, hehe):
1. was Irene using the Quick Sword without yoki release (such as inside the inn room) ?
2. is Irene's Quick Sword really berserk (was Irene really unable to control it) ?
3. do you think Irene could "project" the Quick Sword like Clare is seemingly able to do so ?
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 14, 2011 at 06:38 PM.
OK that makes sense. But if Galatea can read someone's yoki to the most minute detail I find it shocking she can't predict her opponents movements like Clare/Teresa.
it is confusing/ambigious and is thus a big debate over whether Galatea's Yoki Sensing is equal to Clare's+Teresa's Yoki Sensing (via the PYS/ELYSA) and or if not, why not than, what's the difference...
I've been wondering about this idea:
Galatea without her eyes has her Yoki Sensing enhanced...
could it not have been the same for Rafaela with her one missing eye... maybe she had more reason to not Regenerating her eye, than merely choosing to not do so as a reminder about her failure to protect her beloved older sister Luciela, from becoming an AO. hehe
was Rafaela's Yoki Sensing enahnced from her missing her one eye as well?
Teresa vs the 7 Ghosts:
Teresa all the way, here's why:
1. Teresa took on YR'ing Irene+Priscilla+Sophia+Noel with NO YR of her own and NEVER got touched!
2. Teresa is simply too powerful, Clare wasn't even remotely able to take on (Awakened) Priscilla, yet Teresa pwned 70% (Claymore-Awakened; "Orcish") Priscilla with only 10% YR.
3. the Ghosts' NYS is useless, as, as a mere Trainee, Teresa could ALREADY sense NYS Rafaela! Teresa is the ONLY being thus far being able to sense the NYS status!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 14, 2011 at 06:50 PM.
I agree Teresa would destroy the Ghosts.
About Galatea, I don't see why she hasn't regenerated her eyes yet. It doesn't seem her Yoki Sensing abilities are going to grow any further (I mean, how could they? SHe can sense from Rabona to the Organization O.O) and it wouldn't make sense for her to lose her new found sensing abilities if she regenerated them. I mean, it can't hurt.
I also want the 7 ghosts to battle an AO(either Riful, Luciela or Isley) do you think they stand a chance against one of them? Battling a former # 2 without yoki release they really did perform well but how about an AO?
I don't see how you could exclude internal youki movement from a physical movement. They're connected. That's why Clare and Teresa could use their PYS ability and that's why Claymores can have a strength that no human can achieve. You're suggesting here that Ophelia would develop somehow a technique which wouldn't require youki usage but Claymores are built in a way they have to use it. When they're cloaked they're using it too (otherwise they wouldn't have power to do phantom mirages or do a wind-cutter) and I'm guessing that with enough time youki is being evenly distributed throughout the whole body, contrary to it being concentrated in the core in the central body part (the part where Clare was almost hit by a female youma) and then being redirected and redistributed to other parts. That's why, even though cloaked Claymores have less power to rely on they have quicker access to it and they do not exhaust themselves easily since the core isn't being used (and thus, the risk of going over the limit is non-existant). But that's just my guess.
Anyway, like I said, Clare has explicitly stated that she can sense Ophelia's strikes coming, i.e. she can read the flow of youki perfectly. But the additional movement of the sword screws this all up and adds randomness to her attack. For the swing she has to use youki and for the sword-rippling she has to use it too (otherwise she wouldn't have strength to do it, vibrating a sword with such a speed that it would appear snake like would require tremendous strength). It's similar to Irene's QS which strikes in every possible direction in it's range making it impossible to read or to Priscilla's bouncing-off attacks, where even though Teresa could sense the flow of youki, Priscilla's move of bouncing it off her back screwed it up. But in this case I don't see how you could exclude vibrating part of the move from a swing itself (since they both require youki usage). Your idea makes Ophelia's technique look like a cloaking technique which IMO is impossible. The only possibility I see is that Ophelia would redirect all of her youki in every body part except her right arm but that would make her technique both slow and weak (and we know it's not the case here). Irene could have moved her legs while using QS, make a sudden side-step for example and Teresa shouldn't be able to sense it (since all of Irene's youki would be accumulated in her right arm) and in Irene's case it might have helped since the most important part of her body in a fight (i.e. the one that would hold a sword and be used for attacks) would have full strength and for moving a Claymore body you could have a human strength.
I see your point HK but I disagree, nonetheless it's an interesting thought and made me think about how cloaking works, so thanks.
As for your questions, first let me remind you what we know about QS:
Irene said it herself in chapter 37 (Viz translation):
"The essence of QS is to release all your youma energy into just one arm. In a way it's like just one arm alone awakens. In short, QS is a technique where one arm goes berserk with full youma power, and the rest of the body strives with all its might to control it.".
I wouldn't trust it much but in chapter 92 Raphalea sensed it and Clare confirmed it.
Gernot's translation (Cnet128 has translated the same):
Rafaela:"Her youki disappeared...? No. No way, she... Only the right arm... Only the right arm's complete youki release...?"
Clare: "This is the former number two's... Irene's flash sword."
So the answer for your first question is a no. The nature of the technique makes it obvious that she must have released youki (all of it) into her right arm. Otherwise Clare would be able to use QS (at least weaker version of it) while being cloaked. It's just not possible.
As for your second question, Irene couldn't control it fully. The key-word here is "fully". "The rest of the body strives with all its might to control it" but it couldn't be controlled by Irene. Clare knew it and she thought she wouldn't be able to either.
Volume 9, p. 134:
"Until recently I did not think of the QS as something that could be controlled. I just assumed it wasn't part of the nature of this technique. The concept of control did not even cross my mind."
Clare managed to overcome it thanks to her PYS. She created a controlled version of QS that reacted to youma energy (probably similar to Nina's Shadow Hunter). So Clare has improved it. She could be very precise and this move couldn't be read because of all moves that went along with it (it is possible that it could be read more easily by Teresa/Clare if it was too perfect but IMO it's less possible). It would be perfect if she could have more power.
As for your 3rd question, I'm not sure I understood it correctly but if you're asking was it possible for Irene to control her QS I would say no. She didn't have PYS ability and she was strained to the maximum by her version. I can't see a way for her to improve unless she would be able to learn PYS.
Last edited by Goral; April 15, 2011 at 01:39 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
well, I like to think of the TATs (Trainee Awakening Twins) as Alicia+Beth still as Trainees.
we don't know for sure what rank they would be given, they may not be rank 1+2, we just don't know.
but, let's assume they are rank 1+2, just like Alicia+Beth, but they're obviously still only Trainees.
(I'm ignoring that Miria said she could kill them easily, as this was due to them still being "Trainees in training", and is irrelevant to the question of power levels, if Miria could take on AOs, if Miria has the power level to do so or not)
Miria said that they were more powerful than her, and we know she had to use her Phantom Step on them, as Raftela was able to do her Yoki Manipulation on Miria, which she said she required Miria to release her Yoki in order to do it, thus Miria was releasing her Yoki as she needed to use her Phantom Step, in order to stay alive against the TATs. But, than Raftela put a stop to Miria, hehe. yada yada yada
so, even the powerful Miria, was weaker than the TATs, and we're saying that they are AOs, Awakening rank 1+2 Claymores.
so, we've seen Miria vs two AOs, and she couldn't handle them.
we also had Clare saying that Riful would tear her to pieces.
so, based on what we have, even Clare and Miria are not quite at AO power level, hehe.
I think I've seen this discussed, either on the MH forum or another website. From the discussions that I have read, members have hypothesized that Teresa and Clare sense youki in a different manner than Galatea. While Teresa and Clare can sense the flow of youki through out a warrior's body (as explained by Irene), Galatea cannot sense such flows and eddies. However, Galatea can sense the "presence and quality" of youki on a large areal scale.
Although, Teresa did sense the enforcers approach the town. Therefore she does have some limited youki "range" sensing abilities. Probably, all warriors can sense youki from a small distance. Galatea, though, has an entire array of satellites fixed on sensing youki over the continent.