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Beckman threatened Kizaru and that was enough to stop him on his tracks so, it shows he is quite a fighter. I would put him in the same level as the others admirals. Shanks would obviously be above but not at WB and Rogers level.
Galdino or Mr.3 is at least Arlong strong, if not higher. It was said he defeated a pirate with a bounty of 42 million. Bounties dont show strength effectively but gives us some clues. And with his fruit, i doubt he would lose to Arlong or Bellamy who could only jump from place to place.
Thats enough for now.
But what power would the Marines have if their third strongest force was weaker than a Rookie!
Some VA's are in the scene for 20 years (chapter 0) and I don't think some one who was a kid witnessing Roger's death, would be capable of beating them!
Last edited by beastboy; October 04, 2010 at 06:46 AM.
In fact, he completely ignored Beckmen when he attacked Law's submarine.
So yeah, that scene tells anything about Beckman power.
I don't understand your point.Quote:
First of all, Smoker is older than Hancock, and almost the age of Shanks. It's common for important characters in manga series to be young but strong.
Second, Luffy already confronted the Shichibukai. What exactly are you trying to say? =S
Last edited by Fox666; October 04, 2010 at 07:00 AM.
beastboy, with your argumentation in mind, the manga wouldn't make any sense, as there would never be a time, when Luffy is stronger than anybody else, since he's one of the youngest characters in the story. It's about overcoming the stronger characters in a shorter amount of time than they can grow themself, that's the plot device of 90% of manga. But don't forget Luffy's trained his "whole" life too.
Admirals are in such position because they don't fear anybody.
all im saying is, VA's > Smoker.
and how about Nami, Usopp, Chopper being above Arlong, Bellamy, and Buggy?
i don't think they're stronger than those three pre timeskip.
Just because Smoker is a Commodore?
It was already explained in the series that there are people weaker than Smoker with higher ranks. And the reasons are obvious.
Do you remember Commodore Purin Purin? He and his tripulation were killed in a instant by Arlong subordinates. Seriously, Smoker eat guys like that in the breakfast and use them as toilet paper.
I was not saying that being older equals being stronger...
I was saying that experience does matters in a fight!
Of course there are those lucky assholes like Luffy who have the luck to have strength in the blood line, but you can clearly see experience when some one cuts is arm to avoid being turned to stone...
VA's are, In my opinion stronger than P-TS Luffy, If they weren't what would be the point...
Dragon could just storm Mariejoa and assume control...
He would have 4 people that really are strong (now that Garp and Sengoku retired), and a bunch of weaklings which Ivancov would pwn in a second...
I guess that the thing this war did the best was to show the difference between LUFFY and THE TOP DOGS...
I know he was kind of almost dead, but the Vigour Hormones wouldn't make that hurt his fighting style, since is body would be unaware of damage, and 2 Vice admirals didn't even let him go Gear 2...
Knowing Haki there would be no way that a V.A. would lose to Smoker, smoker's fighting style is based on his intangibility, as he surrounds the opponent with his body, and the turns it solid... if the opponent could hurt is physical body, he would be limited...
I find it hard to believe that crocodile is unaware of Haki, he is a guy who already went to the new world, and wasn't surprised by Jozz hitting him but more with his speed and power...
(Of course he was surprised when Luffy hit him, since a Rookie shouldn't know haki...)
I don't know if he can control it, but I would guess he can't, but after two years in the new world, he might have learned something!
Nami, Chopper & Usopp vs Bellamy, Arlong & Buggy
Nami & Chopper both beat members of CP9... Who would have in all honesty wiped the floor with Bellamy, Arlong or Buggy...
Arlong had almost no ability outside of the fact that he was slight stronger than average human beings... Nami vs Arlong... What happens when you electrocute a fish? Fried Fish... Buggy's only ability is that he can't be 'cut up'... Section Section Fruit... Electric, Melee attacks to the face and sniping + impact dials would all hurt buggy just fine... Bellamy's Spring Spring Fruit isn't faster than 'Soru' making his only advantage speed/momentum less than that of CP9... As Zoro said as they moved from Island to Island they got stronger... Even if they didn't really noticed the same goes for Chopper, Nami & Usopp...
Kizaru vs Ben Beckman: Kizaru was not joking... He made one last attack assuming that Ben wouldn't want to pick a fight with him... They were there to end the war not escalate it... After his one barrage attempt to finish Luffy off he ceased any action... If Kizaru had though Beckman of no importance he would have simply continued fighting...
Vice Admirals vs Smoker: Vice Admirals that we have seen have all been relatively on the same 'level' of power... Smoker being stronger than Vice Admirals I think is a bit far fetched... Smoker's jutte did give him the edge against other DF users such as Luffy however as we saw vs someone with haki he got stopped in his tracks... Logia's in general as blackbeard pointed out while fighting Ace are strong because they generally don't take damage... You start wailing on Smoker and I don't think he is going to be putting put much resistance... I.E Boa Hancock vs Smoker...
Battle Experience in OP World: From what we've seen battle experience doesn't matter nearly as much as battle ingenuity... Sure Momonga stabbed himself to avoid being turned to stone however how is going to fight while stabbing himself? Being able to adapt to your opponent quickly (i.e Luffy using the walls to bounce his rubber attacks off of to defeat mantra) is what counts in One Piece... You can have all the experience in the world and even know what is coming but if you can't react appropriately it matters not...
How can you still insist that Kizaru wasn't joking? His expression, his whole presentation from Shaobobi Archipelago on, did show him to be an overconfident, mocking character [who can back it up]. Kinda like Doflamingo, but salaried. Of course he knew, that he had to stop after that try reading the situation with the Red Hairs, but it was definitely worth taking the risk to fullfil the last standing order, namely taking out Dragons son.
Those experienced pirates wouldn't have lasted so long, if they weren't able to adapt and react "appropriately" to the situation. One unlucky party always has to lose.
EDIT: And of course everybody is miles away from anyone they met in the East Blue. I rarely predict something, but even Chopper should be near supernova niveau right now, if they aim to get anything done in the New World.
Last edited by Schabrak; October 04, 2010 at 02:46 PM.
i now agree with Chopper, Usopp and Nami stronger than Bellamy, Arlong and Buggy.
and what Freid said.
Second that you also don't know the revolutionary power. Perhaps Ivankov is the second in command, and so on there is no other man stronger than him in the revolutionaries?
And third, I don't understand what you mean by the "what would be the point". Luffy already fought with the Shichibukai. Vice-Admiral level is kind of out-dated in the series.
1. There was 2 opponents
2. Luffy wasn't using Gear 2
3. Luffy was using Vigour Hormones, which 10 seconds after that Luffy couldn't move from the floor.
Do you see how you can't use that as a reference?
I don't see why expect that a Vice-Admiral, just because they can use Haki, can just defeat Smoker.
I don't see any reference of their power, except they being humilhated by the Shichibukai and some of them defeated during Marineford. Not to forget they praised Rob Lucci!
I remember Luffy defeating Haki-users already. I don't see why think that because Vice-Admirals can use Haki they would be stronger than Smoker or Luffy.
Last edited by Fox666; October 05, 2010 at 06:52 AM.
I'm going to make a brief stab at the much higher levels of gameplay here: the admirals and the old farts.
Ok, let's get the first things out first: the old farts (Garp, Sengoku + Rayleigh) are living legends, and forces of power in their own right. You could desirably debate that each of them is on par with Whitebeard even with the age disadvantage.
However, let me stop you there. Legends are those who have acredited a long history of accomplishments through their life, however if WB showed us anything it's that power does not last forever. We have seen samples and notes by most of the older generation that they are no longer near their prime. Garp said it whilst throwing cannonballs and Rayleigh said it whilst holding off Kizaru.
So what's my point? I believe the admirals are equal, if not above, the old farts. I.e. I believe levels 9.5 and 9 could be easily switched. Let's take examples:
- Our earliest example of comparison would be Rayleigh vs Kizaru. We are shown that Rayleigh is able to hold off, and deflect attacks of, an admiral (an unparalleled feat at the time). However, only a chapter later a panting Rayleigh is unable to break away from Kizaru whilst Kizaru does his Kizaru joking thing. If this had dragged on, I cannot see Kizaru losing.
- Our major point of reference, and the reason admirals are seen beneath the legends/old farts, is Whitebeard. Sure, let's get it out there that Whitebeard kicked some ass. Sometimes, he kicked several asses at once. However, I know I was reading a very different battle to many people since I witnessed the desperate struggle of WB against the fit, hardened and well experience admirals. Outside of hitting Akainu in the spine and the consequental follow-up, WB did not actually inflict blood-spurting damage on any of the admirals. In fact, each admiral was able to inflict damage, or at least press an advantage each time we saw a momentary 1v1. I know many readers came out of this arc with a "OMG WB > everyone, if only he didnt get stabbed". Let me remind you, that not once in the battle did WB complain about a stab wound. In fact, WB seemed to only falter under his own health (clutches his chest whilst fighting Akainu). So then the other arguement is "If WB was still young..." Yes, but he isn't. If this was a "In the good old days", we will never be able to compare it, because then I might as well future timeskip Luffy and say "Level 11".
Ok I only listed two things, planned a bit about Sengoku and Garp, but they aren't particularly good reference points.
tl;dr: admirals (Kizaru, Akainu, Aokoji) >= old farts (Garp, Sengoku, Rayleigh, possibly WB).
P.S. I don't think Roger should be in this poll, since he's dead his level is 0. If Roger and a maggot fought right now, the maggot would eat him for breakfast.
P.P.S. If Roger is in the poll at 10, Luffy should be 11, Smoker 9, WB 10, Garp 10, Sengoku 9.5, Rayleigh 9.5, Coby 9, BB 10, Ussop 8.5, Zoro 11, Kidd 10, Luffy Jr 10, etc)
You are probably right about Kizaru vs Rayleigh as far as I remember Rayleigh was busy trying to make sure the 'young sprouts' as he called them weren't annihilated... Fighting while defending someone seems a pretty difficult task but I really think the old farts need their own rank... The 9.5 Rank as it is now simply is there to show those old farts at their prime. How we assume they would be rated judging by past/previous events.
As for Kizaru's joking mannerism I'm fairly certain that Kizaru could be within an inch of having his life taken and still joke around... It's just his character... I believe the only time we would see Kizaru being serious is just like Luffy when he is really pissed off... I'm not saying Ben Beckman would have 1hit Kizaru or anything like that... I'm simply saying that he made him pause and think.
Roger is the man that all pirates in this series base their strength upon... He is the driving force of the pirate age... In as Whitebeard died he tried to be like Roger. 'One Piece Exists'... Sure he is dead now but his power was without a doubt the 'height' of the pirates...
Last edited by BlackSword; October 05, 2010 at 07:52 AM.
Or Kizaru was just taking a short pause to make a joke about Beckman, a never ending story here... both are likely one of the strongest men[plural] alive, but there's no more evidence on who's stronger than who, I hope there never will; power levels should have died with DBZ.
Isn't that evidence enough, that he's weaker than Kizaru right now?
Even though Whitebeard was once the strongest man of the world, it doesn't say, that some cunning pirate/marine couldn't beat him. Just because someone used ranged attacks on him, doesn't make them any less fair one on one confrontations.
I would request to remove Garp and Roger from the list. We have not seen they fighting. It's pure based on stories about their past.
I wouldn't place Sengoku below the Admirals. He attacked the entire Blackbeard pirates and made everybody bleed, including Shilliew.
I agree. I found odd that in the list Rayleigh is placed so high. I would place him on level 8.5 (lower than the Admirals). I also would place Marco on the same level of the Admirals, but a little above, so I would put him too in 8.5.