Kamui doesn't grant him immunity to whatever Oro used to make Kakashi crap his pants ( bloodlust, chakra or whatever ), unless you believe Oro to be comparable in might to Juubi, Bijuus, Madara or Obito.
And why would it be funny?
Hashirama passed from a noobish Hokage to myth second only to Rikudou Sennin for the sake of plot, I wouldn't have found strange Hiruzen doing the same. Alas he's useless for the plot, so he'll just have his hype
Unless Sarutobi can shit forests or crazy wild fires, then i dont see how the hell he was considered the strongest among the 5 Kages, heck, we have yet to see him do anything that would counter most of the other Kages... AT ALL.
Ofcourse Kubo could always retcon Sarutobi when he inevitably makes Naruto revive them from the DG stomach. Until then, Sarutobi will get shat on by nearly all the kages present.
That's why we are constantly seeing Hashirama and Madara taking that accolade away from the likes of Hiruzen.
Well you got the idea. Give any random ninja these things and they are good to go. See what Obito became with Madara cheating? He was a big 100% loser!
lol so? He obviously needed plot no jutsu to save him of that situation. He could not flat out defeat them. This is important information to gauge his power...Quote:
You can't be serious?Quote:
What lead to his death (well not actualy but defeat) was the fact that his body was giving up on him. THAT is why Sasuke owned him... Yeah he could do better with his hands but his body was at its end. That is why he run from the 4 tails Naruto...
An ant with no power to defend himself... Are you biased or you just have no idea what you are talking about?
So you are claiming a man that can:
Fight the other 2 sannin (with Kabuto's help).
Fight Naruto in 4 tails making all those there going Oo at what a monster fight. The same 4 tails Naruto that almost killed JMan...
Is an ant with no power to defending himself...
What lead to his defeat as i said above is Sasuke attacking him out of the blue when his body was giving up on him.
You still provided no evidence of what you claimed. An non-canon pic from the anime is not evidence...Quote:
I gave you posibilities of what else could have happened... Now if you can prove you version please provide evidence... I am not claiming that is what happened but if you whant to prove your point then you need evidence.
All you need to do is LOOK at it.. Someone who can:Quote:
change the landscape with a wave of his hand.
a single wave of mokuton woods needed an army of Naruto's with huge rasengan and Kurama infusion to stop.
create an army of himself with perfect wood clones.
a dragon that can fight the blasted Kyuubi.
has polen to 1 shoot the 5 kages and only plot no jutsu will of fire bullshit pulling them out of death.
and so on decides to attack Sarutobi with KUNAIS... Let me ask you this, are you serious with that question?
Actualy they are more powerfull then they where originally. Where did you see me stating diferently? As ET zombies they have infinite chakra and immortal bodies.Quote:
What as i said is that Orochimaru was controling 2 brain dead puppets and so they where doing crep nothing.
Actualy this part was made clear in the manga, even vs those 2 Kages, then vs Hanzo and a few others... Remove the will of the ninja also removes that will of fire bullshit... To bored to look for links... Thing is that is not what i said... I said that removing the MIND and having 2 braindead Hokages not using there full power because of it..Quote:
Do you know what retcons are? Fact is right now Sarutobi lost his status... It was made clear by Dan the only one who can stop Madara is Hashirama... Hashirama was braised to be God of shinobi...Quote:
Also going by what he showed in the manga FROM Sarutobi and comparing what Hashirama and Madara can do he comes short. Its clear manga evidence that Madara would step on Sarutobi just like on all 5 Kages combined.
Look at what Madara showed and what Sarutobi showed...
He also said JMan's oodama rasengan can bust mountains and Amaterasu burns with the heat of the sun but actualy it was unable to burn trough KARIN'S BACK.Quote:
Also that was before Dan stated that stuff about Madara and Hashirama... So please...
Also lol on Hashirama = S6P.. That is just epic bullshit.. The man creating the moon in the sky creating crep out of nothing and the Juubi's JIN... That line alone showes its just nonsense... Absolutle nonsense.
Also yes going by what feats Sarutobi has the counters to Amaterasu don't exist... You need Raikage level of reaction times to dodge or take defensive actions (asuming its the version that oppens in your face).
Heh he can say Sarutobi is the king and queen of the manga if in the manga itself he is not showed as that...Quote:
You keep going back to the same metaphors, 1 liners and hype...
If Kishi states Konohamaru is the strongest but in the manga Naruto pimp smaks him then its irrelevant what Kishi stated.
This discussion has gotten complely ridicolus. He has NOTHING that would put him even in the same league.
---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:43 PM ----------
Situation curently is diferent... He is aware of the situation he is in.... Thing is he is ready to trow his life away. Also Naruto's influence is showed. Also yes Kamui increased his power levels. Not durabiliy but his defence (wha saved him from Sasuke for instance) and obviously offence. The fact that he was scared of Oro proves nothing.
Thing is Kishi has retconed even the hype. With the simple words coming from Dan... The fact that only Hashirama can stop Madara...
Then of course can't you see that it makes no sense? Let's asume Sarutobi was the strongest of the Kages. Is he as powerfull as the 5 curent Kages togeder? Because Madara can tap that with nothing but his Susano... And Hashirama can take Madara with his Susano + Kurama... Let's be serious its NOT possible for Sarutobi to be as strong as Hashirama... Its just not possible. What the hell was he to be = to the 5 curent Kages when he showed the crep he did? When Kurama attacked he was just buying time and hoping for Minato to come to save his arse.
What Diamond body?Quote:
Also what Sarutobi defeated there where MINDLESS PUPPETS controled by Orochimaru... That was not Hashirama's skills in fighting even in taijutsu...
Also who cares how he got his power, that is not the point...
Last edited by xXan; December 31, 2012 at 09:56 AM.
Can you please tell me where that was stated ?
And didn't Sarutobi defeat Hahsirama ? Don't give me this whole "they were brainless puppets", please. In the war a lot of them were brainless and doing just fine.
Again, can you tell me where this thing about them not being at full power came from ?Quote:
What are you doing dude ? What the hell do you think your doing ? It's not even funny anymore. You're seriously going against the author himself ?Quote:
Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage, FACT.
God of the Shinobi in his prime.
The strongest Hokage in Konoha's history - First Databook, pages 117-119
The strongest of the five Kages.
"Rikudou was known as "Shinobi God" Sarutobi must have been godly" - 2nd Fanbook section of "interesting FACTS"
Doesn't look like "1 liners" to me.
You can say whatever you want but what the author says, goes. Like it or not. Unless of course you have a fact that says Hashirama is the strongest Hokage or that Madara is stronger than any other Hokage.
Last edited by KingOfNight; December 31, 2012 at 11:36 AM.
Pretty much sums it up, no need to discuss about that any further.
Whatever words may tell, it's still a fact that Hiruzen's power was nowhere near the Five Kage combined, and honestly, as diminished as one's skills may get, it still shows a flash of what they could possibly do, like Oonoki, but Hiruzen failed to show a power of that scale.
It was not flat out stated so. It was from all the crep Madara was sprouting and from Dan claiming that only Hashirama could posibly stop him.Quote:
Then look how Hashirama's jutsus are cleaning the clock of 5 Hokage ffs.
Even Tsuck was asking Tobi if he is Madara why the hell with all the secrecy when he can take them all openly. Then Tobi used that line on how he is weak after Hashirama's fight.
Sarutobi was said that PERHAPS is the strongest of all the Kages but NEVER as strong as ALL of them and able to take them all...
Yeah let's remove the brains of the fighter, he ends up using only a small fraction of his power, he is a puppet on strings... But yes let's call that a win for Sarutobi.Quote:
Of course you also ignored the improvement that Kabuto made to them... In the end you can ignore it as much as you whant but that Hashirama used only a fraction of the power Madara showed.
Let me gues you have comprehension problems right? Or you just can't read? Let me post it again:Quote:
Actualy they are more powerfull then they where originally. Where did you see me stating diferently? As ET zombies they have infinite chakra and immortal bodies.
What as i said is that Orochimaru was controling 2 brain dead puppets and so they where doing crep nothing.
Next time try to read please.
You don't even know what retcons and exagerations are when the plot demands it...Quote:
Fact is that your fact comes from part 1, from Iruka who is just about a fodder and who was not even around when Hashirama was alive.. Not only that the words are "its said to" its not "he is".... Its and ASUMTION.Quote:
Do you really belive Kishi knew what he is going to do with his manga 10 years later?
Aha, part 1 again. Then you tell me why he can't stop Madara please? Dan lived to see it all but he clearly stated in CURENT continuty only Hashirama can stop Madara.Quote:
Not only that its a TYTLE. Nagato was said to be undefeated and a GOD ffs...
Focusing on part 1 from long ago...Quote:
Aparently you only read what you whant to read... Some read comprehension is needed.Quote:
It is SAID (asumtion) that the Hokage was the strongest of the 5 Kages.... (then the reason ROFL!!!!) Because he is the Hokage... Good reason there pal. Kabuto is sure smart with his arguments...
Then part 1?!?! DO i need to say it again?
Second Databook focusing on part 1 again. Not only that is playing with words. Semantics... Amaterasu was stated to be hellfire and burnin with the heat of the sun... JMan's Rasengan blasting mountains to bits and other insane crep.Quote:
Facts are curently what is showed in the manga. Madara soloing the Kages like nothing with his ultimate Susano or with Hashirama's wood. Its one thing to claim that Sarutobi was perhaps the strongest but to claim he was stronger THEN ALL THE OTHER HOKAGES PUT TOGEDER its just nonsense... Madara is soloing ALL THE OTHER HOKAGES for God's sake. Its not even sure he is the strongest of them all but he MOST DEFENETLY is not stronger then ALL OF THEM put togeder.Quote:
But i seriously getting bored. This is like the people using that 1 page of Itachi/Kisame convo on how they togeder taking on JMan would end up dead and if they bring help it would be of no use when we know that NAGATO ALONE owned JMan... So how the bloody hell it would not help to bring him? How the hell can you belive that Jman can take on Itachi and Kisame at the same time and have a chanse in hell of winning with the feats they showed in part 2 (Kisame, Itachi and JMan)... Fact is Kishi DID NOT know where the manga would get eventualy....
You are right, this is getting ridicolus, you are closing your eyes and focusing on crep that happened some time ago when Kishi did not need the curent event that are happening in the manga. Stuff get's retconed when the story demands it...
Look at Sarutobi your God of shinobi just buying time vs the Kyuubi with A ANTIRE ARMY ON HIS BACK, the entire Konoha and w8ting for MINATO to come to save his arse. Do i need so say more?
Last edited by xXan; December 31, 2012 at 01:12 PM.
Opinions. Keep them to yourself.Quote:
Keep your opinion to yourself, don't remember asking for them.Quote:
Guess again, you fail. Or perhaps you can't comprehend your own words :Quote:
You're straight up saying he is weaker than his original self. Which is an opinion so keep it to yourself like everything else.Quote:
Keep your opinion. Kishimoto himself said that he from the very start Knew how the series will end. So spare me your thoughts.Quote:
Keep it please. I ask for proofs and you bring opinions to this.Quote:
Yes you and your opinion are smarter than Kabuto who is basically speaking for the author.Quote:
You can say I have reading comprehension problems, but you need to learn how to read first so that your smart guy attitude don't backfire at you.Quote:
Did i ever say anything about 2nd Databook ? Can't you tell between Databook and a FANbook ? Either way, the 2nd Fanbook in case you can't tell came most likely after the Kage summit in Shippuden. And unlike the Databooks, it's straight up answering fans questions. So it's not playing with words, it's a direct statement. Which means I win.
The rest of your posts are just as useless as you other opinions. You can insult me however you want to hide your lack of proof, but, i win this argument.
Last edited by KingOfNight; December 31, 2012 at 01:40 PM.
1- hokage- madara would beat him now. now he got a counter for hes wood with wood also got the rinegan.
2-- hogake- he was not special. madara would beat him,
3-hokage- hes style of fighting would not do noting to this madara. i mean onoki look stronger then the 3th. or equal.
4th-hokage- obito match up with him, i got no problem saying madara would beat him, space time, baaahh madara would find a counter, like the flower+susanoo=perfect cause not only minato, could not touch him, but the smell of flower would beat him or slow him down.
5-hokage plus j-man would not even do noting to madara cause we see what happen to tsunade and if you add j-man would not make a different.
naruto, not even in a million year he would beat madara, even with the fox help. but since hes main character, kishi make that possible, but us as fan we know thats not possible.
sasuke- i dont know about him, i need to see hes new power first, but at this level. hes noting compare to madara.
itachi + nagato would make a good match for him. but in the end. madara would come up the winner.
guys what i trying to say is....madara is the god of naruto right now, we having see someone with hes power or skill before, i mean he proof that by fighting 5 kages level who was doing combination attack and they all was skill ninja.
how can madara get beat. by reviving him as human and crew hes plan as the host of the 10 tails and make him run out of chackra and kill him. cause if he become the host of the 10 tails. he would be more powerful then he is by time 10
KingOfNight, this is a discussion thread. People are free to express their opinions.
Regarding your post, if Kishimoto exactly knew how the story would develop in a decade, and he screwed it up this badly, then, he should just give it up completely. Every now and then, there is a development that completely violates the continuation of the manga, toying with the power levels like a joke and so on.
For instance, for me, "Madara gave the Rinnegan to Nagato" came really out of blue, trampling on Nagato's character, messing up his side of the story and his legacy. This may not be the case for you, but I'm sure everyone here is irritated by a tentative development in story at some point, unless they think Naruto is a completely flawless manga.
So, in that regard, the direct statements from Kishimoto pretty much mean nothing when we are discussing the power levels. I have already pointed out that it's just about spotlight. Whoever is under spotlight at that moment, that character is elevated to a godly status. Like Hyuuga coming to the battlefield out of nowhere and being hailed as Konoha's best without any feat to back that up beforehand. It became clear that a Hyuuga would have an epic moment soon when that panel speculated about their awesome power. It's just a build up to Neji's death.
Likewise, if Orochimaru is battling Sandaime, Sandaime is the best Kage ever. If Madara appears, he would praise Hashirama to be at his level by his own words and Dan would back that up. Why does Dan say no one could possibly defeat Madara aside from Hashirama? Because it's a simple build up to the defeat of the Five Kage.
That's a clever trick for Kishimoto to use, actually. He just doesn't want to interfere with the power level business at all and completely leaves it to our perception and deduction.
Then look how Hashirama's jutsus are cleaning the clock of 5 Hokage ffs.Quote:
Not oppinion, FACT. Its curently happening in the manga.
Even Tsuck was asking Tobi if he is Madara why the hell with all the secrecy when he can take them all openly. Then Tobi used that line on how he is weak after Hashirama's fight
Not oppinion, FACT. Tsuck said so himself.
Sarutobi was said that PERHAPS is the strongest of all the Kages but NEVER as strong as ALL of them and able to take them all...
Not oppinion, FACT as long as you can READ. Its not stated as fact, its stated as a rumor ...
So was he controling his own action? No.Quote:
So was he using all his abilities to there best? No.
Was he a puppet and badly used one at that by Orochimaru? Yes.
So where are my oppinions? I only see facts? Not only that this is an open debate. I am free to give my own oppinions...
Its the later, trust me its the later.Quote:
You claimed i said they are not as powerfull as when they where in real life. SHOW ME where i said that, show me, quote me... And i don't mean they where not using all they had because they where brain dead. Show me where i said ET Hashirama and Tobirama would be weaked in that mode then real life.
You see there is a diference. Its one thing for that mode to not give Hashirama/Tobirama full power and another point completly for Orochimaru to not use there full potancial because HE was controling them. They had the full ability they had in real life - the brain BUT Orochimaru DID not use what could be condidered Hashirama's true power.
Orochimaru was controling them like puppets. It like you are on strings and someone is moving your body. Its not YOUR skill doing the punching but the one pulling your strings...Quote:
If the mind was not removed then yes that would be his skill but as long as they did not have a mind and they where ROBOTS controled by Orochimaru is not there skill.
This is not like Hashirama was not as skilled or as powerfull as in real life. This is about the fact that he was not ALLOWED to use his skill and power because he was turned into a mindless killing machine controled by Orochimaru just like Kabuto controled Nagato but only way, way worse.
So he knew at the start what he would do now? Are you serious? LOL!Quote:
So you are telling me he knew where his manga is going to be 10 years (or so) later?
Same as above.Quote:
And he was not sure. He stated that its so its said. He did no put it as FACT. Then add what i said above, then add the fact that the reason given is absurd.Quote:
Ah i see then its not even relevant. Its just Kishi tanlking with the fans. Yes i did miss the fanbook part.Quote:
It was released at the end of 2009. Wow really impresive. Yes i did miss the fan part but let me add some more stuff from it:
But it was not Madara, it was OBITO. So he lies? In his on fanbook? WOW. How can it be? He lies to the fans so he can hype the manga? So he can sell it? No, this is just not possible... All the stuff there are FACTS... You see that is why i belived it was databook, i did not even conceive you would post a serouce like this. You see in this type of stuff where Kishi is doing his best to not offend fans, to not get involved with what people like and to sell his manga.Quote:
Look more lies here:
THE ENTIRE PAGE. Yes i can find you more but who gives a damn. I did not even think you are bringing up fanbooks...
Also that line in the fanbook proves NOTHING. It does not stated he is this or that or more powerfull then the rest of Kages. Its just a 1 liner for God's sake, a metaphor.. I can show you in the manga ITSELF Nagato called a GOD and Konan an angel of God.
Of course you also ignored the part where i said even asuming he is the strongest Hokage there is no way he is stronger then all 5 Kages put togeder something that Madara is dismantling right now with his Susano or Wood element like nothing. Its not posible for him to be stronger then Hashirama/Madara as he sure as hell is not stronger then all the kages put togeder...
The 4'th Raikage would remove his head before he can move a finger. Even Minato with all his speed could ONLY teleport out of the way and noticed Raikage when he was 1 cm from his face...
Seriously my intention is not to insult you and i apologize if that was the result. Thing is you are refusing common sense. I mean try to have an open mind man. Kishi is a MAN he has limitations. There is no way for him to know where his manga is going to get to eventualy. Aparently he lied in 2009 or he did not even knew back then that he plans to make Tobi into Obito...
Last edited by xXan; December 31, 2012 at 04:55 PM.
Maybe all of you would shut up when kishi decides to show hiruzen's true power. But I'm pretty sure all of you would just said, that's an asspull power. Maybe one of the most powerful jutsu of hiruzen is his combination mode with enma. Enma as a super metal can transform to any shield or any get up like erza's power.
Enma can change to any metal armor to protect hiruzen from fire, water, lightning, wind and earth jutsu.
Imagine hiruzen with robocop suits. with a flying swords.
I ignored most of what you said (not trying to offend you) because i found them of no use. But what I will reply to those :
He was asked in an interview whether he knew how the manga is going to end just like how Oda knows how OP will end. And he answered that he had the ending already planned in his mind. Of course he may change some details and things like every other human would, but i don't see him going back at this statement.Quote:
And the biggest example is, when Minato had his heroic moments and stuff he said all the great things about him, but never said he was the strongest Hokage.
Same for Hashirama (and you need to know that hashirama is my favorite Hokage), despite all the praise he is showered on now. Not a single moment was he said as the strongest Hokage.
I failed to see your point from this ? How is that not relevant ?Quote:
Can you please tell me how he lied ? At that point in time, Tobi WAS Madara. What did you want him to say ? He fought Obito who was disguised as Madara, and there goes the story for you ? This is not a lie, he was just confirming stuff from the Manga. And remember, all this stuff about Hiruzen is in his prime ! Like here. Have we seen his power here to argue that Kishimoto is lying ?Quote:
Are you just going to go back and forth about that statement being a lie ? Because if you're tell me and I'll stop right now.
You should know that Nagato is by far my favorite character, so I'm in no way satisfied with what he did for him. But what am I supposed to do, cry about it ? That's the way it's. I already told you that I myself see Hashirama as the strongest Hokage but would that change what K-man said ? No. The fact that he said what he said in the Fanbook even though no one was forcing him is just a BlastQuote:
We don't have to agree with what Kishimoto comes up with, though. What he has developed through manga and what he said in that fanbook is contradicting.
even here he asks Iruka not to use past tense. We never saw Hiruzen in his prime so how can we judge him ? Both he and Hashirama's performance against each other were pathetic. And just like Hiruzen, all there is about Hashirama is hype. So why does it work for Hashirama but not for Hiruzen ?
EDIT: Ah yes ! When Hiruzen caught Orochimaru, he was trying to implant Hashirama's cells into other test subjects, who died one after the other. Which means Kishimoto already planned for Hashirama to be a god- like shinobi from part 1. With this, i suppose both you would admit that he knew what he was doing from the start.
Last edited by KingOfNight; January 01, 2013 at 06:02 AM.