I was always of the opinion that Kurama simply restored his chakra overtime, and that he's at his maximum power as we speak. I remember it being stated that once a bijuu dies while in it's host or whatever, it's reborn later... pretty much out of thin air. We also see that bijuu can regenerate. Kurama seems to regenerate far faster than the average bijuu aswell, simply by regaining chakra.
So, why would it be far fetched to believe that over time he simply regained all the chakra he lost thanks to Minato's seal? Matter of factly, it'd explain why Naruto's seal was gradually weakening: because Kurama was gradually getting stronger.
That's a bad logic though. What if it was significantly bigger than the other bijuu at full power, and shrank to their size when it had half its chakra taken away? It makes no sense that sealing Kyuubi's chakra shrinks it, but having its chakra stolen and it attempting to use more chakra only results in it becoming emancipated.
Bunta could have been heavy enough to hold it down.
I think Naruto beat the half-powered Kyuubi while Hiruzen and Konoha pushed backed the full powered Kyuubi.
So you think Kurama having the same zise with the other biju's in the past and having the same size NOW its not an indication that it has its chakra back? How could he have the normal size with half chakra when we noticed it going smaller? To state that a page showing all the bijus are at the same size means nothing is "wtf" moment...
I even posted a non-canon link above with Kurama having the same size in that fight Hashirama vs Madara like it has now... Yes not canon but i am sure Kishi agrees to the crep its put there.... If Kurama was 2x that size it would probably be seen just as well there...
Fact is Kurama was the SAME SIZE as all the other biju's before the seal and it has the SAME SIZE NOW in Naruto's mind and in the real world in chakra mode... So please tell me how the hell is it at half chakra when it is full size and not half size...
Because Kurma was NEVER 2x the size of the other bjus... It was ALWAYS the same size... Posted manga panels of it having the SAME SIZE as all of them... So use something VALID as this is nonsense at this point. At this point you people just IGNORE manga panels with Kurama having the SAME SIZE as all the other bijus to support your point...Quote:
I am curently facepalming at the notion that you people don't think its possible (key word possible)for Kurama to generate its chakra back... How is this not posible? How can you people not agree that its POSSIBLE? We are all asuming here but not agree that its possible... Its mind boggling to me man.
We know it can be KILLED and have ALL its chakra dispersed and in time it would pop back into play at 100%... Hell i gave you an example before... Someone can take a part of my blood away, PERMANENTLY just like Minato did with Kurama's chakra but i can generate more in time. If its possible or not to regenerate said chakra back was NEVER addressed... So you need to look at other factors to deduce IF its at half power or not. You needing direct links where it is stated its no longer at full power is nonsense... It was never stated it can't get back to full power in the first place.
The trees stuff where already addressed...Not only that it could be diferent trees. Some grow taller then others. Some are older then others (so bigger). Its hard to judge. Try the buldings and how Kurama is not that much bigger then the snake summon and frog summon (links by RK).
First off you are again trying to you read what you whant to read so you can rationalize that nonsense...
To state he knows all the jutsus in Konoha when he actualy knows half of them because he does not have bugs or whatever... Yeah that line would be meaningless... It was not stated that he can PERFORM them all, just that he KNOWS them all... So he could know how wood element is performed but not able to perform it... You are looking at it like it was stated how he can do them... He was just stated HE KNOWS them. No need to have any special crep to KNOW them...
Anyway the KNOW them has some value but to also perform even those that would only need the 5 elemental affinities would be... Stupid to say the least... Perhaps it was possible in part 1 lol.
Emm he knew the seals before noticing Minato use them... If he did not know the seals before Minato started forming said handseals then he would not know what Minato was doing there. Perhaps he needed weeks to learn them...Quote:
Nop... He said he is most compatible with Raiton but he is compatible with the rest just as well... aka my strongest affinity is Raiton but my other affinities are Doton and Suiton...Quote:
The thing probably just shows what you have the most compatibility with. Your strongest affinity. Its properties probably does not allow all the crep to happen at it, just 1 of them, your strongest affinity.Quote:
At that point it was ONLY 3 of them man... Of course he is not going Oo that he can use 3 bloody afinities... Kakashi HIMSELF can use 3 of them so why go Oo at it? Makes no sense when he himself can do that. Of course he was impresed by how strong he could use 3 afinities but then when he used 4 Kakashi stated what i linked you. The fact that he could use 4 affinities was impresive at that point... Again link AFTER 4 affinities where showed:Quote:
At that point it was about affinities.
Last edited by xXan; January 15, 2013 at 03:29 AM.
On Kyuubi's dimensions, the below post shows perfectly that Kyuubi still hasn't recovered the chakra Yondaime sealed away
Its also confirmed Sasuke's affinity is Raiton
Kindly provide evidence to disprove Orochimaru's claim ( someone who had no reason to lie and expecially someone who trained years under Hiruzen, and thus knew all about him ), and for evidence I mean someone saying that Hiruzen doesn't know all the jutsus in Konoha
As well as secondary affinities not being showed in the papers, or people saying is impossible to have anything more than his own affinity
As for personal jutsus, it was my guess, even though its reasonable he had a grasp of some jutsus if of course the inventor of said jutsu was okay with teaching it to him.
We know Yondaime teached only Jiraiya the Rasengan, and Kakashi somehow copied it with his Sharingan ( we don't know if he copied Yondaime or Jiraiya )
If I remember correctly, minato, the one who sealed the kyubi to naruto stated that he sealed half of the kyubi's power. And then jiraiya confirmed that. So what's the point of debating on something that's already clear in the manga? It's already a fact that the kyubi right now has just half of his power. And even if naruto's seal is weakened because the kyubi is getting stronger, but it doesn't mean the kyubi already regained his half power.
It's just the kyubi's half power is getting stronger and stronger.
So we got to a point where we are posting the same things over and over again hopping for new arguments to pop out? Sure i can do that to. Here(but i am sure no new arguments are going to "pop"):
That post you quoted does NOT invalidate what me, ninjabot, Rikudou King and others belive.Quote:
Part 1... Hype, praise, baiting and making fun of him... You can't posibly take those words as serious... Words claiming that he knows ALL the jutsus in Konoha...Quote:
Hell Sarutobi aparently knew the DG seal and ET summons but he had NO idea that crep sealed with DG can't be summoned back in the word... Figure that...
You whant more? Nagato was GOD going for crep praise nonsense... He could not lose... Well gues what he was God and he could not lose only before meeting Naruto... If you whant to leave in the concept that Sarutobi could know every single jutsu in Konoha then be my gues... I gues he also could do Harem no jutsu if we are at this... Oh and the words used there to atribute Sarutobi's information of all the jutsus in Konoha was not to denote a fact, it was to denote a rumor that he would know them... You don't even a fact coming from Orochimaru's words.
As for the second part.. Show me people claiming that its posible to have more then 3 please. You do that then i do what you asked.. But i hope you are not going to ignore how Kakashi was refering to 3 elements in your link and then about afinities when its 4+ elements... Ignoring and trying to derail the conversation with nonsense (asking me to provide non existing facts) its so not... Logical... We where arguing the links provided by you, aparently you had nothing to add to it and so decided to change to "present links for bla bla bla"...
No actualy what Minato said contradicts what Jman stated. Its not yin/yang... Its half its chakra... Minato would have sealed more but it was physicaly imposible to do so. Its just CHAKRA.
How is it "wtf" moment? THat's like me telling you I took away few apples, showing you a basket of apples, and asking you to guess how many there were originally and how many I took away. You can't guess because you don't know how many apples there were originally or how many were taken away. Same applies with the Kyuubi - you don't know how tall it was in comparison to the other bijuu before it had its chakra sealed. Hell, for all we know the bijuu's true size is 2x bigger than what we've seen when the jinchuuriki transformed. I think the turtle is the only bijuu we've seen free, and it was nowhere as big as the Kyuubi, if I recall. If you're confused as to what bijuu I'm talking about, it's the one that Deidara and Tobi got with Deidara's bakuton.
That's not a fact at all, considering it seriously does look a lot smaller. When Kyuubi was freed from Kushina, both she and Tobi looked like tiny pricks and hard to see when Kishi was drawing Kyuubi standing. However, I don't think Gai or Kakashi looked that small when standing next to Hachibi or Kyuubi.Quote:
Proof? You only posted manga panels having it same size AFTER it had half its chakra sealed. I'm ignoring nothing, I even pointed out why I"m not using that as a fact or basis for Kyuubi having its whole chakra back. All we have to go by are comparisons. Kyuubi easily towered over the trees on four legs while Ichibi and Bunta were few meters taller than the trees.Quote:
Of course it's mind boggling to you. But how does Minato saying he sealed half of Kyuubi's chakra contradict what Jiraiya said? Minato never said he didn't seal ying or yang, or could have done so and meant half of its chakra.Quote:
We don't know that it can be killed but regenerate. We take it as fact only because it was said so, but we haven't seen it in action, have we?
I did look at other factors, and I did show links and comparison about its size. Once again, why would Minato seal half of its chakra in himself when it'd just recover its chakra in few years?
I doubt the trees that Naruto and Killerbee fought the jinchuuriki in or the trees in Naruto vs. Gaara are taller than the tree on top of the cliff that Minato and Kushina were on, which Kyuubi easily towered over.Quote:
And like I said, Kyuubi was crouching pretty low, at least compared to the frog and snakes.
We don't know that. I doubt Minato didn't teach Kakashi rasengan, considering chidori was created to replace rasengan, and used before Kakashi ever got his Sharingan. I'm sure Hiruzen knows about chidori and raikiri, as well as rasengan as they're signature jutsu of famous shinobi.
In any case, Hiruzen in his prime probably wouldn't have been able to kill Orochimaru that invaded Konoha, or after the invasion. Even Four-Tailed Kyuubi failed to do that, and Sasuke would have lost if it weren't for genjutsu or plot. Orochimaru was almost unkillable, needing something like bijuu cannon (in his own words anyway) to fully kill him.
It doesn't change it. I'm not talking about Madara here so I don't care whether it changes anything or not.Quote:
Pretty sure he said they simply guessed that the Sharingan evolve into Rinnegan.Quote:
Taijutsu means body techniques, thus hand to hand combat. Weapon skills are Bukijutsu (Weapon techniques).Quote:
Into the bold part. The Rasengan is not Yin and Yang technique, it's simply chakra Manipulation. It was stated to be the highest possible level of chakra manipulation. You don't understand, pure chakra is not Yin and Yang. Yin-Yang in of it self is a chakra nature (just like the other five).
Yes, but here, Obito says Yin and Yang. Had the frog meant the same thing, why couldn't he just say Yin and Yang ? Yin and Yang again, is a chakra element as it is, it can't be what the frog meant.Quote:
Orochimaru until the very end couldn't use them. Yep, everything you said is useless with this. And nice try in the bold part...Quote:
Here is your right translation. The toad said something else, but you with your special ability to change proofs to suit your argument made it into a proof. The Kyuubi was simply restoring his chakra, the same way Naruto restores his sage mode chakra. And halving the Kyuubi's chakra capacity was me putting it in a simple way for you to catch on. He lost half of it forever done.Quote:
He used Yin-Yang to create them. He didn't say they will perish without any of the two. I create something with my hand, will it perish if I take my hand away from it ? He used his own Yin-Yang release jutsu called "Banbutsu Sōzō" to create them. And that's that. Stop changing what was said, seriously, in your case this is a talent.Quote:
You should see in that link that Gamabunta as a whole is as big as the Kyuubi's head (Including the neck). As he used all of his body mass just to pin down the head, otherwise they would've shown a panel including all of the Kyuubi's body not simply Gamabunta sitting on his head (while grabbing his arms). The Kyuubi isn't a flying head and arms you know. And don't show me the next page, I saw it, nothing to negate my argument.Quote:
You made an assumption after seeing it drained out of power, that's all. A direct statement of it using it's life force was never shown. There was nothing about using your own life force in the Narutoverse to begin with. I simply pointed out I didn't accept it, simply sick of it. That's not arguing, that's simply making my point clear.Quote:
Here is what you said :Quote:
The first situational example was the one you claimed to be made up when you said "I'm using actual evidence, not trying to make things up". Seeing as you countered with another means your admitting you either used a made up evidence\example or simply lied about me making things up.Quote:
You didn't say they weren't feats when you were using Hidan and Kisame as an example. And no, when we were talking about the people that defeated Bijuu, I asked whether you really believed those people could one shot Hiruzen. This was in no way related to Sasuke and the Kages.Quote:
Last edited by KingOfNight; January 15, 2013 at 12:18 PM.
Don't be mad, we are discussing a manga
-Kyuubi is the same dimension than other Bijuus
-Naruto's Bijuu mode is the same as Kyuubi
Both aren't right, or rather the first is unconfirmed, and in the second you don't keep in mind that, in Bijuu mode, their chakra is melded, thus its not Kyuubi, but Naruto+Kyuubi.
Naruto2011's post, on the other hand, makes a direct comparison between the sealed Kyuubi and the actual Kyuubi.
Fact is Kyuubi didn't grew one bit after 16 years
Orochimaru's claim wasn't disproven, neither it was a rumor since, again, Orochimaru wasn't a stranger, but was Hiruzen's prized disciple, as such he surely knew well his sensei. Would you argue that, say, Naruto doesn't know all there is to know about Kakashi? Or Shikamaru about Asuma?
As for part 2, Kakashi also thought Rikudou was a mith, that the Sharingan was derived from the Byakugan and so on
If, say, Madara, or Obito, or Hashirama would've said something like that I would agree with you, but Kakashi was disproven countless times. His knowledge is the average ninja knowledge, he also said, if I remember right, that FRS was impossible
And talking about hype and whatnot, Kakashi's comment was made to hype Kakuzu as well.
Point being, who is more believable, someone who knows all about Hiruzen, or someone who was proven to be wrong time and time again?
Proof that Kyuubi's Yin is more prominent than its Yang?Quote:
Yondaime sealing the Yin half ( or Yang half, can't really remember ) implies he sealed half of the total being of the Kyuubi ( 50% Yin 50% yang ), as such Yondaime's claim didn't contradicts Jiraiya's.
Seeing as Orochimaru's hands couldn't be restored even after changing bodies, its pretty much confirmed that what is sealed inside the Shinigami is sealed forever, as Yondaime himself said, sealing half of Kyuubi's power forever, that is.
It would be pretty dumb to believe he meant "I will seal half of Kyuubi's chakra forever... But he'll just recover it in a month or two, which means basically I'm throwing away my life for nothing lulz!!!1!!"
And Orochimaru did say that, if Hiruzen was even 5-10 years younger, he would've been able to kill him, Shiki Fuuin is broken like that
As for Kakashi, he meant Hiraishin and not Rasengan, considering he said that Chidori was a jutsu meant to kill a lot of enemies in an instant, like Yondaime's nickname, which was "Yellow Flash"
I know he said that, but I still say I doubt it, based on what we know now. Orochimaru didn't know about Shiki Fuujin when he said Hiruzen could have killed him ten years ago, though he could have meant before he became White Snake Orochimaru and was pretty mortal. Shame consistency failed, since back in Part I it wasn't hard to believe or wouldn't have been hard to believe Hiruzen would have been stronger than Madara or Hashirama.
Kakashi told Naruto he created chidori because he couldn't combine his element with rasengan.
I don't remember Kakashi ever saying he could "only" use 3 elements. That is only what he has shown. It is never said or even implied that one cannot use an element he does not have an affinity to. The whole meaning of the word "affinity" is natural tendency or talent. Elemental affinities is exactly just that. What you are most talented in. Of course learning and using an off-affinity element is much more difficult hence why few can actually do so, but it is never said to be IMPOSSIBLE.
Last edited by chilibun; January 15, 2013 at 01:06 PM.
before it was sealed and after.
more then a Genin should have, and his "mastery" was literally huge. Not to mention we're talking about him seven years before that when he had just begun school. But for transforming his chakra into another nature, he succeed on his first try. Sasuke having an affinity for lightning doesn't negate him having a fire nature too, which is the underlying point.
Besides the Toads state that Naruto's suppose to take control of the Kyuubi's full power and Minato only sealed half the Kyuubi's chakra because that was all he could handle.
The whole deal with the Rinnegan is it giving the user the ability to use all five elements. Not much of a feat if any ninja is capable of them. And then there was the thing with Kakuzu, which one version had Kakashi shocked due to him using those different natures.
People who are not kekkai users are generally born with one elemental affinity and that's what the chakra papers reveal. Now how are you suppose to know if you can use another element or not? You can't. You just train until you do learn it. Most jounins, who are supposed to be the most talented and exceptional shinobis, can only manage to learn a second element. Considering that, yes, the Rinnegan allowing you to easily learn all 5 elements is a damn incredible feat. Kakuzu only used 3 elements against Kakashi when he made that comment. Kakashi can use 3 himself, so what is there to be shocked about? Not that Kakuzu can use 3, but that he can use 3 at such a high level. He even mentions specifically mentions at "this level." The most talented shinobi's, the jounins, only manage to learn 2 and most don't even reach that level of high elemental manipulation. Kakuzu using 3 elements at such a level would make him like the most talented mf in the world. That's why Kakashi is shocked.
Last edited by chilibun; January 15, 2013 at 04:11 PM.
Half of its chakra sealed away could cause it to shrink down to half its size. It wouldn't necessarily shrink down to their size, but in half, which could be close to the bijuu's size. What about when Naruto goes bijuu mode? That's a pretty close depiction of post-Shiki Fuuijin Kyuubi.Quote:
Not necessary if Bunta is just that heavy. I'm not saying it's that small, but it's not big enough to completely hold down the Kyuubi.Quote:
How so? It could have been 10x taller than Konoha's gate, but now it's 5x taller thanks to half of its chakra being sealed.