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The excerpt in question from the databook:
Yeah, brute strength is something Yammi's apparently best at. He's apparently only tenth because he's a dumbass according to Kubo, hence he's not the best example. What example we do have is that Kira was splashed by some water from a shikai attack aimed at Gin, and was completely immobilized thanks to it. Him and Hisagi get nailed once, even a little, and they're out of the picture. Renji and Ikkaku are the real threats here. From where I stand they definitely have a chance, it'll just be tricky as they probably can't hold off the ice forever.Quote:
Edit: Also now that I look at those pages, the ice dragon you're using as the example of Tenso Jurrin formed before Tenso Jurrin activated, if we take into consideration the clouds forming on the next page. I think instead the size here should be taken into account: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...32-page-6.html
Mind you that's several times more massive than that building behind it, ergo much larger than Gin and Kira combined, and it's not even taking into account the splashback. Granted, it's hard to tell regardless, but Tenso Jurrin certainly seemed to make it bigger, and it follows the logic of more water = more power for him.
Last edited by Random101; October 17, 2010 at 06:28 PM.
If only the top layer of skin is frozen, than ice attacks wont hold Espada for long. Yammy having the second toughest Hierro would have the most reslilience to Hitsuagaya's ice attacks out of all the Espada except for #5.Quote:
The VC-level fighters wont have that luxury....
Out of curiousity I want to know what people think of Hitsu's swordmanship compared to the others.
Restrictions: All Bankai.
Hitsugaya's Ice attacks. But he still has his shikai crescent-blade chain.
In say 1vs1 who would have the geatest chance at defeating Hitsu or lasting the longest against him and who would be the weakest? How would you rank them?
And if Hitsugaya still comes out on top, what combination of the shikai fighters would give them best chance of winning? e.g.
Renji and Hisagi? (mid-range shikai users)
Kira and Hisagi? (The all-rounders)
Renji and Ikkaku? (former squadmates)
All four them? (Four vs 1)
What do people think?
Last edited by Waking_Dreamer; October 18, 2010 at 04:09 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Pure swordsmanship is suicide against Kira without a significant gap in strength. Granted though there is a gap, just hard to gauge how much, he certainly seemed able to blitz both him and Hinamori that one time, even took a strike from his shikai and was virtually unphased then, though admittedly one isn't exactly much. Then there was that other time he virtually dispatched Hinamori with a backhand, though granted she was quite distressed and thus likely not fighting as effectively.
If they teamup effectively, and more importantly work hard to keep Kira alive and getting enough hits in they probably have a decent chance of winning this one, though granted hard to say without knowing certain factors, particularly the speed gap.
True, blade to blade Kira is an issue but mostly if you have only one blade. Hitsugaya's shikai chain can also be launched as a another attack as Kira is engaged with Hitsu's katana blade.
In 1vs1 if Hitsugaya has your arm encapacitated with his chain, then youre done for imo. It took 4 slashes for Matsumoto's zanpakuto to be unusabe, I would say it would take more than that for Histugaya to drop his sword.
Kira is out of action just being close to the dragon. I don't know about individual abilities, but Hisagi's reatsu must be in the same area as Kira, which means that he can't touch Hitsu in shikai either. With both Renji and Ikkaku in shikai too, they will loose.
The closer you get to Hitsu, the more exposed they are to the dragon, and well.... for a vc, that is suicide.
If Renji and Ikkaku go bankai, they will probably have the reatsu to withstand being close to the dragon, but if they get hit, they are boned. To top it off, Ikkaku is a close range fighter and Renji is crap. No chance that they will not get hit a few times just trying to get close to Hitsu.
And one more thing. Hitsu is so much faster than them it is silly. Renji could see Byakuya's attack, so I assume he can see Hitsu's too, but in a prolonged fight I don't give him a chance, especially because he himself can't move that fast. The other vc's are also slow compared to a captain (although Ikkaku can probably see the speed too considering he is a melee expert).
And just to top it off.... Hitsu's snow move is a shikai move. If all else fails, he makes it snow and the VC's are buggered.
Well there is certainly a pretty big gap in speed and strength here, IMO, between Kira and Hitsu. I would actually put Hisagi above Kira in both strength and speed. He also has the feats to back it up. Hisagi's shikai is less hax, that's for sure, but I think it would be better suited for this fight, because if someone like Kira enters a direct swordfight with Hitsu, it's game over pretty soon.
I think that whatever hope there is for VCs here, lies in Hisagi and Ikkaku, who seem to be the only guys to be able to physically keep up strength and speedwise. Renji's bankai matters, but lets face it, it wont hit. It may protect him and do some actual tanking though, something none of the other VCs could do, save for maybe Ikkaku who I think could take a beating, especially in bankai.
here then even if the fight started a couple of miles from each other and they ran like hell in every direction away from hitsugaya the lot of them could still be potentially trashed or even killed. It's not that I think VCs are altogether weak, its just that captains are several entire leagues above them. Surely VCs are the second best thing next to captains however they are still people of relatively low importance who can be easily replaced within the gotei 13. Heck, even with bankai renji could not land so much as a hit against grants, let alone his shikai. What could he possibly do against hitsugaya?
Sorry, I didn’t mean to say Baboon cannon would provide an efficient defense for Renji. My mind was thinking of filler/movie Renji, lol.
But I do think the cannon would rival in power with the ice dragons if not overcome them.
The anime did make Baboon cannon seem like an explosion.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSh4bsFgVxA
In the manga, it didn’t really give me a clear picture of the effects it caused. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...0-page-17.html
Regardless, it was still able to take out a fraccion in 1 shot, which means I’m pretty sure it will do something against the dragons.
Anyways, I can still see Renji’s bankai itself providing an efficient defense seeing how Yammy broke Hitsugaya’s ice so easily.
Now the chances of Baboon cannon actually connecting to Hitsugaya really depends on the distance. If Renji shoots from long range, then Hitsugaya will have no problem dodging. If he shoots from close range, then there’s a good chance of it hitting.
I agree that HH’s properties in ice are greater than Hitsugaya’s smaller ice attacks, but that’s not the point. What I’m saying is that there’s no proof Tenso Jurin can increase the power/properties of Hitsugaya’s ice dragons. Even if we say Tenso Jurin does have such an ability, it doesn’t necessarily mean it will drastically increase the ice dragon’s power. Look at this. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...1-page-16.html
On the bottom left panel, Hitsugaya says he can’t do anything without his bankai. He never said he couldn’t do anything without Tenso Jurin. This pretty much tells me that Tenso Jurin won’t really make a huge increase in the effectiveness of the ice dragons. Well at least, that’s how I see it.
Sure Ikkaku might get wet, but he’s not gonna be instantly frozen if that’s what your implying. The power and reiatsu his bankai generates will make it tough for Hitsu to immobilize him seeing how Yammy broke the ice so easily in base. With enough force, the bankai will at least soften the power of the ice dragons to the point where Ikkaku won’t be fully frozen. One thing I will say though is that Ikkaku’s bankai won’t last long as a good defense seeing how it broke against Edrad.
Kira was still relatively close to Gin seeing the bottom panel. http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...32-page-5.html So there’s really not a huge difference whether Hitsugaya was aiming at Kira or not, which means that you have to give Kira some credit for actually avoiding a direct hit especially since it’s his first time seeing Hitsugaya’s shikai. Kira saying it was impossible to avoid was just his first impressions on the attack. It doesn’t literally mean it would be impossible for him to dodge it.
I can see Hisagi dodging the ice dragons seeing how he avoided Masked Tousen’s blitz. With that reaction skills, he should have a plausible chance.
What Hitsugaya said about the 7 miles deal was most likely referring to HH, not his regular ice attacks.
I agree that captains are several leagues above the VCs, but don’t forget that this is a 4 on 1 against a shikai captain. Add the fact that you have 2 VCs who can actually achieve Bankais which is very uncommon and I highly doubt Yamamoto knew Renji or Ikkaku had such abilities. Those facts alone should be more than enough reason why the 4 VCs are on par with shikai Hitsugaya.
Actually it kinda does. Granted he might have a greater chance the next time, but he pretty much directly states he couldn't avoid it. Until we actually see him prove otherwise there's quite simply no other way to take that statement. This is compounded further by the fact that even just getting splashed with the water is an instant KO, and that Hitsugaya is casually flinging ice dragons the size of buildings at them with Tenso Jurrin active doesn't help in the slightest. Particularly since he's practically spamming that crap.Quote:
Frankly even if they managed to avoid the first one, both Kira and Hisagi are pretty much fodder in this fight. Kira especially since he's pretty much exclusively close ranged. Ikkaku and Renji definitely have a chance with bankai though, just not a particularly solid one give the odds that should be in their favor.
Also, are you seriously comparing yammi, the espada with the second strongest hierro, with renji or ikkaku? Renji is miles away from even sealed yammi, its not even funny. Heck, both of them barely won against measly fraccion and renji won out of luck, he actually said he might not have won if his sudden increase in power hadn't caught grants off guard Also, against yammi hitsugaya did not use tenso jurin nor he could have. He would have gotten his comrades killed on the spot.
So how would kira avoid the attack? As he said, it was fast and huge. If we consider that along with the fact that the attack was not aimed at him, how does he avoid it? Even gin actually got wet from the attack.
Also, hisagi did not avoid tousen's attacks. Avoiding an attack implies you did not actually get hit. What hisagi did was merely move back enough for the cut tousen gave to not outright kill him. In this situation there is no middle ground. If he gets wet, he dies without even being targeted.
The area of effect of hitsugaya's shikai is enough to take out the 4 VCs at once. If I recall he has 7 square miles where he could quite literally throw chunks of heaven to the VCs. It does not matter if it is 4 VCs or 13 or 100 IMO. Hitsugaya speedblitsing the VCs is not unrealistic in the least. Heck, the most realistic scenario is that he does outright speedblits the VCs in close combat. That said, I don't think defeating 4 VCs is something that would be hard for any captain in the least.
Lets also consider this.
basically, hitsugaya in a half dead state after taking a trashing and moments before he passed out was still capable of scaring a fraccion with his reiatsu alone. Heck, the fraccion quite literally did not have a sliver if a chance in hell of escaping nor or opposing hitsugaya in his barely alive stage. Had hitsugaya not have the limiter from the start odds are he would have just speedblits the guy from the beginning (he did basically speedblits him right now) without even having a need to release his zampakuto. Unless there is some serious trolling in this fight there is not reason for the VCs to have a sliver of a chance in hell of even defending themselves.
kkck, correct me if I'm wrong but do you say that Hitsugaya with his sealed sword can defeat the rest of Gotei 13 combined? (captains excluded)
About 90% of those probably faint from spirit pressure of a captain alone. A further 7% probably go down with the backlash of one attack. Mayuri put it best, the strength of the Gotei 13 is almost entirely decided with the 13 captains.
Course this isn't to say he could take all the vice captain's sealed, particularly given close combat alone against Kira is just a bad idea without an absolutely massive powergap, but putting it as the rest of the gotei 13 combined, excluding captains, sounds significantly more impressive than it actually is given what we know.
I think Madarame Ikkaku could solo Toushirou in shikai. Ikkaku is not a VC, yet strength wise he's somewhere in between a VC and captain.
The way I see it, the difference between someone like Renji or Ikkaku (i.e. bankai-capable non-captain shinigamis) and the captains is that the captains' bankai are more devastating due to their complete control over them. The difference can seem like night and day, but comparing a shikai to a bankai is an even bigger night and day difference.
Yeah, people will bring up Renji vs. Byakuya but that was the FIRST time Renji can used his bankai in combat, and Byakuya was also busting out kidou as well. If the two had a rematch and Byakuya was banned from using kidou, Renji would definitely force Byakuya into bankai IMO.
True, most of them don't pose any threat to a captain, I'm just trying to figure out where kkck is coming from. If I'm not mistaken, kkck's opinion is that any person from one class can defeat the totality of people from lower classes. For example, Yammy as espada #10 in his sealed form can take on all VCs and fraccions and win without much effort. If this is the case, there's no point in discussing the merits of Hitsugaya's shikai because he wouldn't need it anyway.
Of course, this is a totally contradictory logic according to my standards. Let's take Ikkaku. He probably has more than a decade of experience with his bankai. If he is still nothing against Hitsugaya's sealed sword, then he will never be a captain, ever. Because when he becomes a captain, he will be strong enough to force some captains to bankai but apparently he is so weak that he can't even force them to shikai, even with the help of a horde of people on his side. How will he close such a big gap, is there room for his bankai to grow 1000 times stronger even after a decade of experience? I don't think so.
How did Byakuya defeat Renji's bankai? He took advantage of Renji's lack of control because Renji had just achieved it. If Renji had challenged Byakuya after gaining proper control of his bankai, Byakuya would have been forced to use bankai to defeat Renji. I don't buy the "familiarity" argument which suggests captains are stronger than VCs only because VCs don't know their abilities. If Byakuya was so much stronger than Renji, he should have been able to defeat him without any visible effort. If there was such a big gap, the fight would have ended in five seconds.
Captains are much stronger than VCs because they have proper control of their bankai and thus they can use their bankai to overwhelm the opposition. If they won't use shikai (let alone bankai), I don't see where exactly their advantage is. Hollow Tousen failed to speedblitz Hisagi, do people expect me to believe even shinigami Tousen was too fast for Hisagi to handle? It doesn't make sense. If Hisagi was that lowly, his sealed sword in his injured state couldn't penetrate Tousen's skin in his resurreccion. We know that Hisagi can theoretically defeat someone of hollow Tousen's calibre provided that he finds an opening. Who says that Hitsugaya won't give any opening to him? Who says that Renji and Ikkaku's bankais will not be enough distraction? Who says that Hitsugaya can speedblitz someone whom hollow Tousen couldn't?
If Hitsugaya goes bankai and uses Hyoten Hyakkaso, he can defeat all VCs, it makes perfect sense. But why does Hitsugaya have to be stronger than the lot of VCs with his sealed sword, what is the reason for that? We know that your reiatsu increases as you get stronger, in that sense Hitsugaya certainly has more reiatsu than them but where was it stated that Hitsugaya's reiatsu with his sealed sword is still stronger than Ikkaku's reiatsu in bankai? Do we have a reiatsu table which I forgot to read?
The "VCs are nothing" concept appeared when Ichigo took care of three VCs with his bare hands. Ichigo is the main hero, his power is incredibly unstable, Ichigo isn't a reliable benchmark for any power comparison. Otherwise people need to explain why Kenpachi is stronger than Dordonii, he totally overpowered shikai Ichigo who defeated Kenpachi. On top of that, we need to realize that Hisagi is much stronger than the likes of Omaeda or Isane. It seems Kubo has plans for Hisagi and Renji, he emphasized their training, I think this is a hint, isn't it?
Renji would definitely put up a better fight in a rematch but I think you would need to ban kido and cicada to make Byakuya go bankai. As seen with his battle against a Fraccion, once you get through his bankai's coils Renji has very little options to attack.Quote: