How Logias Fight
Akainu was the victorious over Ace which many including myself have been perplexed by. Simply put, Akainu's Magma DF is hotter than Ace's Fire DF.
Note:There's arguments that prove fire is hotter than magma which is debatable because fire burns at different temperatures exuding different colours dependant on its fuel; the core of Ace's flames are red which may imply his fire isn't the hottest type which peaks at 1,000°C while magma peaks at 1,300°C. I may well be wrong, but Oda has chosen to have magma the superior.
From the results and dialogue relevant to this topic, one can deduce that Logias fight by trying to overpower the other with their DF when possible. If one isn't knowledgeable about the weaknesses of their DF, they're prone to defeat which makes sense out of Akainu's remark about Ace. Ace was clearly not thinking, possibly ignorant and overconfident.
- If the DFs of 2 Logias don't negate each other, the victor will usually be the superior DF.
When Do Logias Use Haki
- Just because Logias don't use CoA doesn't mean they can't use it. As far as I can tell, it's impossible to use CoA on body parts that have taken on Logia form.
- Logia however can use CoA on body parts that have not taken on the form of their DF.
- Smoker does this in his fight with Vergo, but because his DF doesn't burn or freeze people, he doesn't lose the effect of his DF by imbuing his fist with CoA whereas Akainu's punch might not be hot and burn opponents if he imbued it with CoA.
Why Can't Logias Use CoA and Be Intangible At The Same Time?
Note: 2 different sources of power can't be activated on the same spot, you can't activate both Fire and CoA on your fist at the same time, but you can still activate it on other parts of your body as long as it remains unaffected by your DF. In essence, CoA and Intangibility can be activated at once, just not in the same location.
- When Luffy covered his fist in Haki whilst using Grizzly Magnum against Caeser Clown, his fists still went through petrification; this means CoA reduces the effect of DFs against the powers of a Logia opponent.
If this weren't the case, Luffy's fist would have remained fine and wouldn't have petrified.
- When a Logia uses CoA, it (most likely) renders the power of their DF absent; If Caeser had used CoA, he may not have been able to petrify his opponents. Sabo too hasn't been applying CoA on his limbs since he gained the Mera Mera No Mi, it seems CoA cancels out ability to activate DF powers.
- Another way to put it is if a DF has to be activated to take effect (which is why Logia aren't always tangible); Haki has to be also activated to take effect, 2 different sources of power can't be activated in the same location.
- Luffy is always rubber (meaning he doesn't need to activate being rubber) so he's able to incorporate Haki at will; Logia aren't constantly in an active state of their DF, they have to activate and deactivate their powers.
So How Do 2 Logias Fight If DFs Negate
Logias can seemingly be caught off-guard if they do not anticipate an attack. I'd assume one has to be really fast to fight like this, albeit a difficult method.
Another possibility is Logia try to engulf each other when their DFs negate each other. This can be seen when Ace fights against Smoker, it's possible by engulfing the other, the other loses the ability to breathe and thus losing their intangibility.
Note: This scene only occurs in the Anime only, but very popular.
In the manga where Ace and Smoker square off, Ace literally states his DF is superior to Smoker's so he may well have done the same thing Akainu did to him. It seems he just wanted to stall rather than fight and the Anime possibly depicted this fight inaccurately, It's quite possible one DF will always be superior to the other.
THIS IS ALL SPECULATION BASED ON MANGA SCENES AND SOME ANIME!
Last edited by Genjil; June 04, 2015 at 08:06 AM.
There is no reason for logia users to be unable to use haki. If anything we have seen smoker use even armament haki as a rocket punch or something. Its also implied that akainu, aokiji and kizaru protected the gaol where ace was to be executed from WB's quake fruit via haki. There is no reason for haki between logia users to have any special considerations over other people.
Assuming two logia users without haki fight the issue would be how the elements interact. Purely elemental advantages so to speak. Perhaps it could simply end up being a battle of attrition and the one who gets tired first looses. But then that would be stupid and such an scenario would suggest both are incapable of affecting the other and it would be more effectively to literally do nothing.
Anyways, the manga skipped the ace vs smoker fight. And ace implied he would have beaten smoker to boot.
Smoker fights differently to other Logia; Akainu, Ace and Aokiji are happy to burn or freeze you with theirs, unlike smoker who just seems to use his DF for manoeuvring and bindings opponents when necessary.
We all know normal people or non Logia characters need CoA to hit intangible beings which I understand, also I'm not saying Logias shouldn't have Haki or Possess it. I'm just curious in how they apply it and mostly how they fight with their DF against aother logia if they didn't possess CoA.
Would Ace and Smoker just have been a stalemate? A fight that couldn't progress to a victor? I think Oda needs to show us the Akainu and Aokiji fight asap.
---------- Post added May 27, 2015 at 05:49 PM ---------- Previous post was May 26, 2015 at 11:27 AM ----------
I don't think its impossible for a logia to use COA haki and logia powers at the same time. I mean, why? Haki can be imbued into stuff, we have seen that working with swords and arrows I don't see any reason for it to be impossible for a logia to imbue whatever he generates with haki. Now, perhaps the case can be made that you can't harden a something while intangible which would work for logias who are by nature not solid (say, ace). Its a logical impossibility, to be intangible and solid. So in the case of ace for instance he could potentially use haki to harden himself and he would still be fire but things wouldn't go through. The situation would perhaps be different for akainu and aokiji. They are both solid so to speak so their elements should be as hardenable as any other thing we have seen hardened before. I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see black ice or lava.
I am not sure of what you mean about the grisly magnum stuff though. Why shouldn't he have been covered in the gas stuff?
On the CoA discussion, I imagine that basic "invisible" Haki can be applied to anything, even intangible and ephemeral elements. But now that Hardening is now becoming the standard for Haki, I imagine we won't be seeing it for a few characters elements. Aokiji and Akainu will be fine, since their elements are physical. Before Hardening became something that everyone used, I had thought that Haki would be able to be uniquely applied to different fruits and unique abilities.
I think that, with sufficient Haki, one can nullify another's Haki nullification, if that makes sense, which would potentially explain how Akainu survived Marco and Vista's attack during Marineford. I believe we saw the same thing in the last chapter when Jesus tried to beat up Sabo.
On the Logia vesus Logia discussion, without Haki, I imagine that it would boil down to a war of attrition. Whomever runs out of stamina first will be gone. At best, they would have to capitalize on their opponents tangible moments and try to catch each other off guard or just go straight to physical combat. It's going to be a long fight either way because of their inability to affect each other with their elements.
With Haki, I imagine it'll be the same thing, just on an entirely different level. Haki now means that every hit can potentially harm you, so you need to be on guard at all times. If my theory about Haki nullification is correct, then they need to make sure they have the right amout to nullify otherwise they could still be injured despite trying to protect themselves.
Ace versus Smoker should end with Smoker losing. From the evidence we have, Ace is physically superior to Smoker, so the moment Smoker solidifies to use his jutte, he will most likely get smashed.
When Akainu got attacked by Marco and Vista, he screams Haki users just after he'd fought with Ace, to me this implies that Haki wasn't involved in their fight.
Also, I always assumed that not only does CoA allow one to hit Logias, but it also negates the power of the DF. If Luffy punched Akainu, I'd have assumed the risk of getting burnt is completely negated.
Follow that line of logic, I assumed Luffy's CoA using Grizzly magnum would negate the petrification caused by Caeser's DF which didn't happen; the petrification process slowed down significantly which made me conclude:
- CoA first and foremost allows one to hit intangible beings.
- Secondly, it negates the effects of a DF only minimally which means Luffy punching Akainu would still get burnt, but at less intensity depending on the strength of his CoA (probably).
Assuming CoA worked like this, then Akainu applying CoA to his Magma fist would be counter productive, it would lose the advantage of burning the opponent and lose Intangibility to an extent.
Other times I've seen Logias fight were in their forms where CoA seemed non-existent was Crocodile attacking Akainu.
The whole portrayal of CoA so far is to hit intangible beings which puts them at an advantage. A Logia can always switch between Logia form and Human form to attack, so I'm not so sure any more that they're capable of using CoA whilst in Logia form based on current findings and observations.
It may well be possible that this is true and possible and in fact it'd make sense, but during that clash between Ace and Akainu, there was no reference to Haki superiority which seems consistent with the brief tango between Ace and Smoker.
Indeed if Logias were unable to activate Haki whilst in Logia form, then fights will undoubtedly become one of attrition and stamina. It'd explain why Akainu and Aokiji fought for days, but I'm still trying to look into this as it's all speculation atm.
On a different note, I think I've found Evidence that Jinbe has Haki which will then mean that Ace does to a greater degree which I'll post on here later.
---------- Post added at 01:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:02 PM ----------
POSSIBLE EVIDENCE JINBE HAS HAKI (MEANING ACE MOST LIKELY HAS IT TOO SINCE THEY FOUGHT ONCE)
Mihawk closes his eyes and uses CoO to predict Luffy's movements after locating him, in his mind Mihawk sends a shockwave from his sword and it hits Luffy; Luffy at the same time is running as predicted in Mihawk's mind, but he senses danger by subconsciously using CoO momentarily which allows him to evade Mihawk's premeditated assault.
- 00:05 - 00:40:
Note: Luffy confirms this by saying he cut me despite not being cut because he saw it in his own mind or predicted if you will.
Jinbe walks towards Luffy (who runs into a wall which in this circumstance has saved him), he follows with the dialogue "I would expect no less from Ace's brother".
- 00:41 00:50:
In order for Jinbe to have said what he said, he needed to have seen what was about to happen too. He had to have seen what Luffy saw in his mind and what Mihawk predicted in his mind with CoO because Mihawk hadn't even executed his attack.
Note: According to the Anime only (as this scene isn't present in the manga), this imo proves that Jinbe is capable of at least CoO. One may speculate that he possesses CoA too.
I would argue that the assumption that haki negates fruits abilities on any degree is wrong (I have been making that point for a while). Haki has never been said in the manga to negate abilities in any form or context. It has only made the point that armor haki allows you to touch the physical bodies of logia users. But even in that scenario the body of said person is of the element in question. Haki being able to negate abilities would thread into kairoseki/yami fruit territory. The best example of haki not affecting fruits in any form or context would be luffy in gear 4. Doflamingo haki kicked a haki covered inflated luffy and he literally bounced off. If haki somehow interfered with fruits then this would be the ideal scenario for luffy's fruit to basically not work. And yet the opposite happened, it was specially effective. The same thing would happen with logias.
Now, the scenario with a hardened logia would not be that the hardened part is not of the element in question either. Logias have physical bodies however due to their fruit they can be intangible. Haki allows contact with said physical bodies without affecting the fruit itself. Now, when it comes to hardening it would work as with any other fruit, the only questionable part would be whether the hardening can work on, say, flames that ace is shooting. However if he uses hardening on his fist for instance it would be a hardened flame punch. It wouldn't stop being fire just because it is hardened.
Anime-only stuff is irrelevant one way or the other.
When I said negate, I don't mean negate in the sense of the way Yami Yami No Mi or Kairoseki negates; perhaps, reduce the potency of the DF attack rather. Akainu punching with a Magma covered fist with Haki would reduce the potency of the attack, less corrosive to the opponent.
I don't think they're capable of using CoA in tandem with body parts that have taken on intangible forms.
Although, with the Luffy Gear 4 form, I just assumed he was able to bounce off attacks because of the form itself and not the Haki. If Luffy were in any other form, he wouldn't be able to retain elasticity. I'd argue that if he coated his body fully in CoA he'd lose his elasticity.
Surprised that Anime wouldn't count as canon at least, odd.
I am not sure we disagree on this part. Take smoker, he was able to use hardening. His fist of course was not intangible. Though I would argue that at the time its not like stopped being smoke. His fist was basically solid smoke, as much as it would be at any other time.
Haki alone has not shown anything relevant to bounding off attacks. It can be used to block but that is still nowhere near bouncing. As far as the elasticity thing I would argue that luffy has shown control over that. He maintains his elasticity in bounceman considering everything we have seen, just look at the bouncing. And then luffy can attack at a range stretching his limbs as he usually does. To add to that he is indeed able to harden his body so as to not stretch if he wants to. He caught doflamingo offguard like that since his punches did not unstretch. With logia users it should be about the same scenario.
Its a manga forum, the things in the anime which weren't changed are at best a reference. The jinbe-mihawk thing specifically did not happen at all in the manga at all so it has no canonical relevance (unless oda specifically says otherwise).
I think we disagree slightly, Smoker imo can only use Haki on parts of his body that haven't morped into smoke.
Except Haki can assimilate with the DFs I'm not so convinced that they can mix it atm. Unfortunately, all the moments we've seen Logias clash against each other have seemingly been exempt of CoA at least.
As for Luffy using Haki with Gear 4, I think it's the CoA's hardening effect that holds it together. I'm still unsure, but you do make really good points. Pretty disappointed at the fact Anime extra scenes that follow manga can still be considered non-canon, lol.
Jinbei don't need CoA. He uses water in others body to hit a logia. I know you guys know that, I am just stating it again.
Fishman karate can't replace haki though, at least not considering the scope we have seen from it. Haki serves offensive, defensive and evasive purposes. Sure, he can fight DF users with fishman karate but without it his attacks would still lack the extra kick haki gives, his defenses would be a step behind almost any decent haki user with armor haki and in a direct confrontation he would be a step behind his enemy even if he is faster since the enemy will almost literally see the attack coming. Jinbe can't possibly do without haki...
I was looking into this Haki and intangibility thing, I know Zoro cut Monet so does this mean Haki can be imbued into air? I'm finding that so hard to accept even though it does seem to be the case.
Also, on trying to answer this question, I cam across this video of the Admirals using Haki to block WBs shockwave to destroy the platform. It kind of makes out Haki can be used as a wall, but projected? I hope Oda goes in more depth with Haki now we're in the New World.