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Nope, I said physically superior mate.Quote:
Hierro helps him out and the fact that Byakuya was slashed and expended a lot of his reatsu fighting Ichigo before taking those GTs which supports that a 100% health Grimmjow was more tank worthy than Byakuya at that time.
I'd estimate that Byakuya can hang with Bankai Ichigo but he'd still lose in the long run. Taking on the hollow mask + Bankai Ichigo is out of the question as Byakuya was thoroughly schooled by a reckless Hollow Ichigo in the past. Ichigo defeated this same hollow Ichigo in his inner world before even going to Hueco Mundo.
Last edited by Primecut; November 19, 2010 at 05:42 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Ichigo left a scar on an unarmed, cocky Grimmjow that left him plenty of time to charge up his attack. You think Byakuya couldn't do better with a Kido spell?Quote:
A low level, non incantation, single digit (4 I believe) Kido nearly killed Bankai Ichigo, are you saying that Sokatsui (a level 33) wouldn't be enough to scar Grimmjow? We've seen VC's do 50+ level ones, I'd imagine a Raikoho or Soren Sokatsui are well within Byakuya's ability without incantation. That WILL hurt, and I'd bet on that overpowering a hollow GT easily.
As far as location, yes Ichigo has the Hollow advantage here, but Byakuya has fought in HM too and he killed two Espada, ONE of which Ichigo barely cut, while Byakuya proceeded to cut off legs like nothing. Normal Bankai Ichigo is insanely outclassed here, it all depends on how strong you think the HM advantage is for Hollow Ichigo, and while I think it's sufficient to give a challenge, I don't see how he can deal with a resolved to kill Byakuya that is allowed in this fight to use Senkei's actual ability.
How does Ichigo's Bankai increase tanking? It's been said many times that ALL it does is speed. I will give you that his Hollow mask almost definitely does something defensively though.Quote:
No further than the top of his flesh? He was SEVERELY hurt after taking those darts, he was panting excessively, and if it wasn't for an Orihime resolve boost, he would have been finished. And what's all the talk about Gokei? It's impressive in the fact that it's basically undodgable, I said specifically it would never one shot Ichigo, but it WOULD hurt, and if you think that those darts did nothing to Ichigo, then my mind is blown.Quote:
You're forgetting something very important, blood loss means nothing in Bleach. Byakuya bleeding by the arm in the Bleach world is the equivalent of a small paper cut in the real world. All Bleach fights would end in the first-second strike if they were at all comparable and realistic. Kenpachi gets cut enough to die 20 times over, doesn't slow him down one bit.Quote:
As far as the whole Byakuya VS Ulq thing, his petals don't have to replicate the same damage as a Cero. One powerful shot is not the defining factor at all. It's his versatility that Ichigo can't even compare to.
And Byakuya wouldn't have to tank Cero's, unlike Ichigo, he's got defense and techniques, why bloody himself when he has so many options? Ichigo on the other hand has none, so he gets hit a lot. I'd also like to point out that surviving is not even close to what tanking means. Komamura already having a massive hole in his chest from a previous battle, gets cut all the way up his body, removing his arm, and still takes a swing at Aizen before being cut horizontally and finally falling <----THAT is tanking. Ichigo gets knocked around a bit, he doesn't get stabbed dozens of times and not even fall down like say, Kenpachi.
And a few pages later we see his mask cut, and a deep gash going in between his eyes. That wasn't defense, that was luckily evading. I wouldn't rely on something like that to keep me safe more than once, it was desperation, not a reliable defense. If I moved my head to one side out of fear as someone shot a bullet at me and it missed my head and grazed my cheek, that doesn't mean I have a defense against firearms, it means I got lucky, nothing more, nothing less.Quote:
Also, Ichigo defeated his inner Hollow by magically turning his sword black and stabbing him, it was a resolve issue, it wasn't a fight in any way.
You make so many references to what happened in the SS arc and completely ignore recent events. Guess what? Kenpachi lost to SHIKAI ICHIGO, I could make comparisons all day to say that Grimmjow is stronger than Kenpachi using the fight in the SS arc, but would it be true? Not even close.
Last edited by Takahashi; November 20, 2010 at 03:08 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
They don’t require blade blocking against slashes meant to cut a Shinigami. Thats the point. A foot soldier (shinigami) can pump holes against non-armoured cars (non-arrancar) but the can also bust up a tank (arrancar), they need just need to be prepared (land mines, RPGs etc) in other words more focussed sword slashes (see Ikkaku battle).Quote:
Also an RPG would blow a car to pieces but not necessarily do the same to an armoured vehicle.
If this is what VizIchi GT did this to Grimmjow why would you say Byakuya would absorb it better?
Tanking IS TANKING. Dont imply it wasn’t. I never said it didn’t hurt but I bet he tanked those better than how Byakuya tanked those HollowGTs. Base on the OP Ichigo gets ORIHIME BOOST* from the start as DEFUALT.Quote:
Please , you know why Ichigo only cut Yammy just barely. That scene in no way suggests that the attacks Byakuya used against Yammy is anyway superior to Ichigo GT. Alos KENPACHI chopped off Yammy’s leg not Byakuya.Quote:
Who was at his limit.Quote:
Im not sure why you had to point this out to me:Quote:
Like i said before THIS IS ALSO TANKING.Quote:
THIS IS TANKING
THIS IS TANKING
Your Kenpachi and Komarurma feats would mean more if Byakuya replicated the same thing but all you have pointed out is that Byakuya and Ichigo are less of a tank than Kenpachi, thats it.
* ORIHIME BOOST = Overpowering Released Grimmjow with min-diff.
Thats the Ichigo Byakuya will be fighting.
Also, interestingly enough I havent posted this much to defend that VizIchigo is going to win - only that he'll put up one hell of a fight...!
Last edited by Broken_Wing; November 20, 2010 at 05:05 AM.
I never said Byakuya could tank better than Grimmjow, what I said was that he wouldn't have to. I said ICHIGO is not a tank, you said his Bankai increased his tanking, it doesn't.
Grimmjow had a single arm, and was fighting in an unreleased form, which basically means he has no ability. Byakuya on the other hand has many defensive abilities and techniques, which you are aware of.
The way I interpreted it was that was Ichigo with a mask but no Hollow powers. That would mean the GT he fired was his normal Bankai power, and aside from aesthetics was unimpressive.Quote:
My point was that it was an incredibly low level Kido that had some impressive power, and it's a testament to Byakuya's skill with Kido. Are you saying that Hollow Ichigo would just be fine if he got hit by a high level Kido? That's all I'm saying. Ichigo both can't use his own Kido as a counter, but he also has no preparation for it. There's plenty in Byakuya's arsenal that can both restrain and severely hurt both Ichigo's, and it's a defining factor for me.Quote:
Actually, I was just being stingy about the word "tank". When you call Ichigo a tank, it sounds like you're saying he's gonna be absorbing slashes from Byakuya like he was Kenpachi or something. That's just not true, the pictures you linked could be used for any fight, Ichigo's just being hurt and not dying. Every good guy who's ever been in a serious fight has taken serious injuries and continued fighting and not died, doesn't make them the definition of a tank. I gave examples of Koma and Kenpachi because those are the only two who I think deserve the title.Quote:
Basically what I'm saying is that I think it's completely wrong saying Ichigo will win because he'll be "tanking" Byakuya's attacks, he's not the tank type, is he fragile? No. Does his mask help him defensively? Probably. But I've never seen anything from him to truly justify him as a tank.
Durability wise Hollow Ichigo > Grimmjow >>> Byakuya. We all saw that Byakuya was half dead from one Getsuga Tenshou from Hollow Ichigo. Released Grimmjow deflected a GT with his bare hand and chuckled at Ichigo manically. He also tanked way more slashes and GT than Byakuya and still kept fighting. Also, show me anything that proves that Byakuya can tank the five darts that Ichigo did, heck, Byakuya's durability has consistently shown that he cant even tank one. And if he cant tank these kind of attacks then Grimmjow mauls him in close quarters combat. Grimmjow is higher ranked than Zommari and technically Byakuya was also fighting an immobilized pumpkin...still struggling in that fight until Zommari got overconfident. Grimmjow isnt gonna stand there lecturing him, he's gonna claw, bite and scratch until Byakuya is a blood mess.Quote:
^^ Are you serious... Byakuya had no struggles against Zommari. The match was over like Byakuya said, there power wasn't comparable. The only reason he lasted so long was because of his Amor ability. The only reason Byakuya used bankai was to show that difference in power. Zommari still lived but would have died eventually. Shikai and kido was all what's needed. Grimmjow is too reckless to fight with someone like Byakuya.
Last edited by Darkp; November 21, 2010 at 05:04 PM.
With that resolve, Ichigo was able to catch grimmjows's hand without even looking, as if it was nothing, then proceeds to cut Grimmjow.
Then, with his resolve, Ichigo proceeds to cut through Grimmjow's ultimate technique as if it were nothing, and then defeats Grimmjow as well.
^ Well I would have Ichigo as the "Orhime Resolve" for this battle, since thats how he did defeat Grimmjow - with that resolve.
Many people say mid-tier Espada shouldnt be a match for the full capabilities of Captains, and I guess VizIchigo showed at the end that he was more than a match for Grimmjow too.
Byakuya takes the first one with some difficulty.
Vizard ichigo takes the second one.
Ichigo is so fast Byakuya can't even react. It was shown multiple times. Only reason he didn't kill Byakuya is because he was fighting the rules, not trying to settle down any personal grudge against anyone. Reason he was having problems keeping up with everyone throughout the AA was because his resolve was broken.
Byakuya was equal to Ichigo's improper Bankai. It was stated that Ichigo didn't know how to use his Bankai at the time and the immense spiritual energy was crushing his bones.
During the time Ichigo faced Ulquiorra he'd mastered his Bankai to the point he could keep it activated for days, without his body being strained. Also by that time Ichigo had mastered the black getsuga, a technique that over powered Byakuya and Ichigo had his hallow mask which gave Ichigo more power.
Byakuya just isn't as powerful as Ichigo but Ichigo doesn't know how to use his power that's why it fluctuates so damn much, that and zangetsu limits Ichigo's power
As much as I like Ken, he's not beating Ichigo again and neither Is Byakuya.
Ichigo's Bankia is and will remain superior Byakuya's Bankia. Tensa Zangetsu is just faster than kageyoshi senbzakura and Byakuya physically himself.
Byakuya can't fight this out with skill alone too many GT to block, then surprise attack he really can't react to.