I have to admit to have not read all of OP, but I really couldn't consider it as "deep", rather pretty flat even. To me it's slightly below Naruto in the depth of story and characters, and actually I only say that because of two story arcs: Zabuza & Haku in the very beginning, and Kisame's death.
I think that Death Note is pretty good in regards of a relatively complex story, and that it could sell it quite well -It's a typical thriller, but relatively innovative and I'm used to dislike most of that genre- while Berserk is is a little closer to Naruto again.
Yet with a world which gave me a deeper impression to the characters, as it is able to thematize things beyond the reach of shounen: Prostitution, weird cults with orgies, the whole range of torture and deformities, rape, heavy cruelity. And they were not used for effect allone, but very well embedded into the storyline and not overdone. Of course it's partially disgusting, but it's designed that way and works purposefully. It doesn't show more of it than necessary.
I don't think that this can be seen as a really negative point either. It just takes a step up the ladder of seriousness.
I am with hegemonkhan about the definition of 'best' (i am neither an arts or philosophy student...better confess early ). I don't understand why 'best' being a 'definitive' term should be seen as a conflicting statement to its 'subjective' nature. When one person is marking something as 'best'...onyx ring or diamond ring...he/she is giving a 'definite' statement. And that 'definite statement' is that he/she has choosen ('choice'...by definition, subjective) that something as of superior 'quality'. Problem is that the standard of judging 'quality' is different from person to person. Its 'subjective'...or in broader term, 'relative'. For example, in case of choosing between an onyx ring and a diamond ring...one may set 'practicality' as one of his standard of quality, and someone else may set 'aristocracy' instead...leading to the difference in their perception of quality...hence to the difference in the 'choices' (but not in the 'meaning') of 'best'. So basically 'best' is a definitive term indicating superiority in 'quality'...but 'quality' itself is subject to 'relativity' and 'subjectivity'. That is exactly why 'best' is definitive and subjective. After all its not that 'being definitive' is a conflicting state to being 'subjective/relative', its only opposite to 'being vague'. The opposites of subjectivity and relativity are objectivity and universality...and i don't see hegemon attributing these to the concept of 'best'. However i do question the justification of one incorporating 'quantity' as a standard for 'quality'...as its a poor marker which often gives incongruous, if not opposite reading to that of other markers of quality. In fact its a established demerit of democracy. If we just look at the topic here...quantity/popularity as a marker indicates a huge margin between One Piece and Berserk, with one piece being the better one. The other markers like character development, plot development, artwork etc indicates Berserk is better. Now to say One Piece is 'best' is to set 'quantity/popularity' as the highest priority marker which overrules all others. To me, that seems a huge injustice.
I agree with you on this...however before considering this a huge injustice, we should count the people who actually read berserk...people like great characters, story and art, but hate violence...so for them OP is better, because Berserk level violence and gore doesn't exist...injustice would be present when everyone read berserk and still said OP or any shounen for that matter is better...but considering the violence factor it would still be a close call...even so demographics shouldn't even count...the fact that we think seinen is better don't really place us in a position to precisely judge the quality of a shounen manga... manga in all shapes and forms is entertainment...so the entertainment value is what this is about...
That's why I found these awards helpful for me...I received information about manga that I dropped, so I could restart reading, or just fresh titles...so we just need to read these stuff first IMO....
Last edited by benelori; January 12, 2011 at 05:16 PM.
using old definitions...
1+2=3 is absolute, and in turn, definitive. Your opinion doesn't matter here, because you cannot get another number from this equation (unless you're heavily into mathematics, but those follow other definitive rules).
Subjectivity is the opposite of that. It's the thought that you prefer hot weather as opposed to cold weather.
You're walking yourself through too much rhetoric and thought, starting with one thing, and coming out with the opposite thinking they are not conflicting definitions.
But I'm not sure if this is on or off topic here. If it is, apologies, and I won't contribute to this discussion any more.
My vote went to Death Note because it's dialog and story is quite fit for literature, yet it was illustrated beautifully. That, and it was executed flawlessly from start to finish, even the death of a certain unnamed character which devastated so many was a work of art that also helped boost it's popularity. It was a rare event for any shonen, let alone a series in WSJ. Because of that, it gets my subjective vote as "best" out of these choices!
Mr. Prince and/or others interested,
in philosophy, they use the word, "favorite", for aesthetical judgements.
"Best" is defined as empirical, it's measurable/absolute
"Favorite" is not defined as empirical, but rather as nomative, as in it's a value judement, which is relative.
It's impossible to know who's the BEST musician/artist
but, it's very possible to know who's the most FAVORITE musician/artist
amida and/or others interested,
I only took philosophy (and logic) 101, though I loved it, and am interested in taking more philosphy classes where/when I can fit them in.
(I think my teacher hated me, as I was really passionate enjoying the thought experiments and such, though he did win every single argument.. laughs. meh, I tried, lol. he has more years, masters, of philosophy, and already knows all the good arguments to use against us/me, whereas it was my first time hearing/taking a phil class. I was 1 out of only 2 students to get an A in his class. he had a very strict grading method. we started at 100% and just lost points as we did the assignments/quizzes, with no extra credit, so it was really hard to keep an A, as that's why only 2 of us managed to do so. the class avg was like ~60%)
my apologizes for some of my other examples in use for best, as some pointed out. I did use some subjective examples for best, which was incorrect to do, wasn't thinking about the examples I used. my bad and again apologizes.
again for any aesthetical judgement (arbitrary/relative/subjective/opinionated), the word philosophy uses is FAVORITE, as Best is defined as absolute/exact ("yes"/"no" or "is"/"is not").
my apologizes too, for getting a bit off-topic.
though if something is going to be decided upon, you need to first know the definitions or what exactly you're deciding on, or by what metrics/factors.
so this has some relevence.
if me and someone else both define best as the same meaning, we could make the same choice of vote.
however, if I were to define best as another meaning, I would then choose a different vote choice.
actually many arguments, occur from two people having different definitions, and don't realize they're really not even debating the same thing, as they choose to define/interprete whatever they're debating differently.
how you define something completely changes/effects your answer/response or in this case, your vote
Last edited by HegemonKhan; January 12, 2011 at 08:01 PM.
@amida i probably didn't make myself clear enough. 'definitive' means 'having an universal/empirical definition/meaning'. The word 'best' does have an 'empirical meaning/definition'. Which is being 'superior in quality'. Hence its 'definitive'. But since the very process of determining quality is 'subjective', 'determination of what is best' is subjective as well. Lets take your example of 1+2=3...in this case the subjectivity from the 'process of measuring quality' is usually removed by making 'observational truth' the only standard of quality. But if we add other standards, say for example 'imagination' and 'popularity'...the whole thing becomes different and therefore 'best' answer may become something else. Lets imagine that 'quality' is a thermometer...then 'best' would be its 'definitive' highest point. But the thermometer itself is subject to different type of scale, thereby changing the value/determination of the highest point as well...but the idea/definition of 'highest point' is absolute...hence definitive. That is why 'best' is a 'definitive' term...but its determination is 'subjective'. To make it even simpler...if one of your friend says 'fight club is the best movie' and someone else says 'titanic is the best'...both of them claiming the same thing about two different movies. That their claim is the same means that 'best' has an empirical meaning...but the difference in actually what they call 'best' means that its determination is relative/subjective.
best is only measurable as long as there are set conditions , like ; "best guitar player" cant be known but "best in speed" is measurable and can be found out . "best manga" cant be known but "best manga overall" is at least measurable , yet still indefinite and far from being absolute
"overall" refers to "most balanced" where you should even rule out your favourite one if it lacks in some aspects . while its measurable , no way it is absolute because everybody takes the average value of all aspects according to their personal tastes and make their final decision based on what they prioritize
The problem I gave is definitive in all aspects, from how it is solved to the answer. You can take others opinions on it, but there is only one true answer, so if you go by definition, "correct" would be the word one should use, not "best", since it's purely subjective, and I could say 55 is the best answer to 1+2 because I think it is the best. As a said above, the modern language uses "best" in many ways, shapes, and forms, and shouldn't be debated in such depth unless applying it to a specific field. You're attempting to relate philosophical meanings of "best" to a non-philosophical event.
@amida i agree with you when you say 'best' is a word used in different forms and meanings. But that is exactly what i was trying to point out as a WRONG thing to do. 'Best' shouldn't be mistaken for 'correct'(your example) or 'favorite'(which many voters tend to do in this sort of poll) or 'popular'. Its a definitive term and it should be used as such. And its defintion is certainly definitive(it wouldn't have been a definition otherwise). I've showed that, and and i've also showed that the application is what is subjective.
@benelori you did give us a better presented arguement in favor of OP by bringing in the 'violence and gore' factor. But still it boils down to the same question of what parameter you should value more when you are trying to judge quality of an art...'popularity' or 'others'. 'gore' is but a literary option for a writer. Use of it in berserk makes it uncomfortable to many readers, you said...which basically means that it brings down points in 'popular acceptance/ audience range/popularity' scale. But when 'gore' is used well, it can raise score highly in 'storytelling' department, as is the case with Berserk. So which one should you value more when you are trying to decide on 'best'?
Last edited by ashher; January 14, 2011 at 08:52 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
^ you are just failing to see the hidden phrase in the tittle which is "for you" or "in your opinion"
as in "Best Manga Overall for you" / "best manga overall in your opinion"
you are the only one to chose the parameters you will value while you decide the best . 2 pages of off-topic discussion over the usage of "best" is way too too much , you should leave it at that already
i think FMA deserves to be the number 1 at least for now , until others are also completed and a better overall judgement can be made
Last edited by shinsengumi; January 14, 2011 at 09:05 AM.
Let's leave the discussion of what constitutes or defines "best" aside, any further debate on the definition of "best" and the like is off-topic. Let's discuss what we, personally think is the best manga overall~
I agree with you, shinsengumi, FMA is my personal favourite/best at least for now. Of course it gets plus points for being completed, thus I have a better picture of it as a whole. I feel it gives me the whole package - food for thought (philosophical thinking, deep story), action, emotional investment, comedy, continuity of story and evidence of forward planning and foreshadowing...
While I am a huge fan of One Piece as well, I would still have to say that FMA wins this with its deeper story and ability to touch people greatly, and appeal to almost anyone. Even my 50+ year old mother loves FMA I also really like that Arakawa-sensei had a real goal in mind and built her manga around it and didn't let it drag longer than it needed to be. She is the one who should say "keikaku doori" (just as planned), because she really did plan it all out from the start.
Until 3 weeks ago i would say withouth any doubt that the best manga was Naruto. But as i alreay pointed something happened three weeks ago and that was that i started reading One Piece and i really enjoyed it. its different from Naruto cuz in my oppinion the plot is not so good but i think it also is more funny and in the current time althought this was the first week that i had to wait for a new chapter i think that i enjoyed more this week reading One piece than Naruto .
If i could choose 2 i would choose both Naruto and One Piece but as i can only choose one i will choose Naruto cuz although in the current moment isnt being in my oppinion so good as what i was expecting in the overall is awesome.
For this award category my vote was between Fullmetal Alchemist, Berserk and Death Note. Since I couldn’t vote for all three I had to make the list shorter; I decided to eliminate Berserk. The manga is amazing so don’t get me wrong, but I eliminated it because it hasn't ended yet and the way a story concludes is something important for me. Now that leaves me with two series: FMA and DN. Both are incredible series, but sadly (and I’m embarrassed to say this) I haven’t finished reading/watching Death Note.
Last edited by destiny4ever; January 20, 2011 at 10:02 PM.
Best Manga Overall Announcement!
The results are in for the first Manga Awards Ceremony (2010) at long last! The moment you have been waiting for, has finally arrived! [Drum rolls]
But first, our thanks. We thank everyone for their participation in nominating, voting, discussing, critiquing, and suggesting ideas for future Awards Ceremonies. This wouldn't have been possible without the hard work of the staff and most importantly our cherished members and loyal fans of manga!
but secondly, let's review of how we got to the winner(s) of the Best Manga Overall Category.
and now, the winners from the Staff's choices:
and finally, what you all have been waiting for, Ladies and Gentlemen, the Members' winner choice [Drum rolls]: