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Thread: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

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    Registered User 初心者/ Shoshinsha / Beginner
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    is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    I love Naruto as a manga/anime but neither Naruto or Sasuke was ever one of me favorite character's so I don't think I was emotionally attached, to the fight, as some my have been. I like Itachi, Minito, Shikumaru, Nagato, Jariya, kakashi then probably Naruto.

    I admit I was rooting for Naruto but, as I see it, it came down to one final attack and it was a draw, plain and simple. If Sakura hadn't of come along its implied they both would have died. So the way I see it the actual fight was a draw but Naruto won the bigger battle of winning Sasuke friendship,(insert throw up sound) so yes Naruto gets the desired outcome but a see the fight it self as a draw.

    What you guys think?

    Side note why didn't Sasuke take full advantage of the Rinnengan?

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Sharikaaria's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    Yep, it was a draw in terms of the outcome, but it was more of a symbolic battle than an indication of who was actually stronger. So, I don't know... even if you rooted for Naruto and it didn't pan out the way you expected, I wouldn't take it as a solid example that the two were actually equal. Sasuke drew upon the power of the tailed beasts halfway through the battle to fight Naruto, who only had the power of one. They were both exhausted from fighting a war, almost dying, coming back to life with new powers, and sealing away a goddess. It was a brawl for the sake of a brawl. I would have also liked to see Sasuke get a clear beat-down, but I guess draw was better for putting the focus on the friendship, regardless of how cheesy it was.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    @JSnow81: You're absolutely right. The fight itself was a draw, but Naruto won symbolically as he achieved his goal of rescuing Sasuke from himself.

    As for why Sasuke didn't use the full potential of the Rinnegan, it's because he only just got it, and it takes time to awaken it's full potential. He even mentions before fighting Naruto that he learned to control it a bit better over the course of the fight with Kaguya. That's not the same as having full mastery over it.
    Last edited by ninjabot; January 19, 2015 at 09:22 AM.

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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    You both make good points, like sharikaaria pointed out they did just deal with alot of sh** . And thanks ninjabot for pointing out that Sasuke was a newbie to the Rinnengan. I was going to say, I'd like to see them go at it with full stamina and full control of all their powers, but they would probably destroy the the world DBZ style and their power levels were already getting pretty crazy so it was probably better this way

    ---------- Post added at 02:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 PM ----------

    Maybe we'll get to see Sasuke use the Rinnengan to a fuller degree in the movie! I hate Sasuke as a character, he tried to, literally, kill Sakura 3 times! But I still can't help but love to watch him fight. Lol

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted xXan's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    It depends on what you mean by draw. Would a boxer with 1 hand tied behind his back and getting a draw with the other boxer qualify as a draw?

    Same here, Naruto could not kill Sasuke as he wanted to save him and needed that eye power to release the jutsu. To the point Sasuke got all the bijus chakra Sasuke could not even get him to go serious on him. Naruto could have pulverized Sasuke before Sasuke powered himself to Rikudo's level.

    Yes the fight ended in a draw since Sasuke had some huge advantages going for him. If Naruto would not be holding back and Sasuke could not drain the bijus then that fight would end with Sasuke turning to dust really fast.

    To me that fight ended with a devastating win for Naruto since he won the symbolic side of it and proved he is way above Sasuke in power.
    Last edited by xXan; January 19, 2015 at 02:59 PM.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    Well, let's look at what a draw actually means:

    53.

    a contest that ends in a tie; an undecided contest.


    Did the fight end in a tie? Yep. Was the contest undecided? Yes. Therefore it was a draw.

    Let's take it a bit further and look at what both characters attempted in the fight.

    Sasuke used all of the powers in his employ to try to kill Naruto (all in his employ as in all he had access to). Naruto used all of the powers in his employ to try to defend against the onslaught (Rikudou Sage Mode, the most powerful form any ninja can take in the entire manga. Naruto held back his actions, not his power). By that logic both characters fought as hard as they could. This is evidenced by both characters receiving injuries in their first clash (Susanoo Chidori vs. Bijuudama resulted in Sasuke losing a wing, and Kurama using half his face).

    Evenly matched.

    Next, Sasuke overcomes his limits to change the stalemate by pulling chakra from the bijuu. Naruto then overcomes HIS limits to keep the stalemate... stale by having Kurama give him more natural energy than he's ever had before. So much it takes all the natural energy from the current area. This is the second time during the fight where everything Sasuke threw at Naruto couldn't stop him, while Naruto managed to defend against said attacks at great cost to himself.

    Lastly, they both are fighting even further beyond those limits, with barely any chakra. They're both failing to use ninjutsu, they're both either kneeling while tired, or falling over. Sasuke has the advantage here because base Sasuke is superior to base Naruto, but eye fatigue causes him to fail. Sasuke gets a moment of Rinnegan use to restore some chakra, and Naruto gets a moment of bijuu chakra from Kurama. They both throw everything they have left at each other, and they both lose an arm, ending the fight.

    So with both characters throwing all of their power into their attacks and failing, and both of them losing at the same time, how can it be anything other than a draw?

    The answer is it can't. Both characters used everything they had. Both characters drew from outside sources to try to turn the tide once everything they had wasn't good enough. And neither character succeeded in defeating the other, they only succeeded in a mutual KO. Naruto didn't defeat Sasuke, but he did hold him back and keep him from killing him, as well as save the bijuu. Sasuke didn't kill Naruto, but he did prove he was his equal by pushing him to use everything he had, and also proving that everything he had wasn't enough to defeat him (not even when he went beyond his limits). I mean, if just matching Sasuke's power resulted in him passing out and losing an arm, actually killing Sasuke would've resulted in him losing his life. Same for Sasuke. Knocking Naruto out cost Sasuke an arm and all his chakra, as well as a lot of chakra from the bijuu. Killing him would've resulted in his own death.

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    MH Senpai 神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike M3J's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    It was a draw, that's clear and simple. Anyone who claims otherwise is just biased. Neither man could go on, which Naruto told us, otherwise one or both would die from the blood loss.

    Symbolically, Naruto won because he managed to change Sasuke's way of thinking and show that he was right. I dunno how, but it is what it is.

    Same

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity marshall313's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    Quote Originally Posted by JSnow81 View Post
    I love Naruto as a manga/anime but neither Naruto or Sasuke was ever one of me favorite character's so I don't think I was emotionally attached, to the fight, as some my have been. I like Itachi, Minito, Shikumaru, Nagato, Jariya, kakashi then probably Naruto.

    I admit I was rooting for Naruto but, as I see it, it came down to one final attack and it was a draw, plain and simple. If Sakura hadn't of come along its implied they both would have died. So the way I see it the actual fight was a draw but Naruto won the bigger battle of winning Sasuke friendship,(insert throw up sound) so yes Naruto gets the desired outcome but a see the fight it self as a draw.

    What you guys think?

    Side note why didn't Sasuke take full advantage of the Rinnengan?
    It goes the same to naruto either. He didnt take full advantage of his new mode/TBS.

    I think that fight was meant to show the readers who's the strongest of the two. And sadly, it was naruto. Naruto is already finished. And kishi just show us that his main character is the strongest of them all. That's alot of sense. After all, naruto is indeed the main character.

    It's damn too hard to defeat someone without killing intent.

    Sasuke is freaking serious on killing naruto, thus, he gave his all in that fight to kill naruto, while naruto didn't want to kill sasuke, so he was giving his all on not to kill sasuke. That's two different scenarios.

    SO yea, naruto won that fight. He defeat sasuke to made him realized that he's wrong.

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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    Yeah, even Kishi flat out told us Naruto is way stronger then Sasuke when he decided to power Sasuke up with all the bijus to Rikudo's level to even make Naruto serious.

    The fight itself was a draw but Naruto "won" the symbolic fight and won the battle of who is more powerful. The fight ended in a draw because of certain conditions giving Naruto a handicap. Under those conditions the fight ended in a draw but if everything would have been fair Naruto would have won by a long shoot.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    The problem with understanding the fight that I see is that people can't tell the difference between the kind of restraint Naruto was using. They hear Sasuke say Naruto's hholding back and they get this idea that he was lowering his chakra, or using weaker versions of his attacks for Sasuke's sake. That's not what happened.

    Naruto held back against Sasuke by not attempting lethal blows. He DIDN'T hold back in the sense of using his full power. Naruto's full strength comes from Rikudou Sage Mode. Which he used. Hell, he used it because he needed it, or else he would've died.

    Sasuke wasn't holding back in the sense that he used everything he had to kill Naruto, and it wasn't enough. That's fine though, because it took all Naruto could muster to hold back that onslaught; the full amount of strength he could scrape out, EVERYTHING in his being to keep from dying. Just to keep from dying.

    Now the real fuck-up is assuming that had Naruto wanted to kill Sasuke, that things would've gone differently. It wouldn't, because Naruto's power level would've remained the exact same. The only difference is he would've wasted more chakra and potentially lost because he would've given Sasuke more opportunities to steal chakra from him. Add to this the fact that Sasuke was far more handicapped for the fight than Naruto (lack of knowledge of his doujutsu while Naruto is a Senjutsu master and a Perfect Jinchuuriki, less chakra than Naruto, no access to all the abilities he could have, less stamina and chakra, unenhanced body).

    The thread creator mentioned DBZ, so I'll use an analogy that they would understand perfectly: Vegeta vs. Goku during the Buu saga. Vegeta and Goku was evenly matched in their fight, but only because Goku didn't activate SS3 to use against Vegeta, who was only about SS2 level thanks to Babidi's magic. That fight proved Goku was clearly stronger, because he could match Vegeta blow for blow without having to power up to his strongest form, while Vegeta wanted to kill Goku, and Goku only wanted to stop Vegeta. Sasuke vs. Naruto was similar, except or the power levels. Naruto not only started the fight in SS3, he surpassed that level and still failed to do better than a draw.

    There's no doubt Naruto is stronger than Sasuke, that's always been true. It's just this manga isn't DBZ. Fights aren't won by having higher power levels. The more powerful ninja never wins. The smarter, more versatile ninja does. Always. Whether from exploiting weaknesses, or through a masterfully executed plan. It's part of the reason Sasuke vs. Naruto came down to an all out brawl with no strategy. It had to go that way.

    For Naruto's sake.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Kid Chameleone's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    The fight was a draw cause it was written that way but if we we're to break it down logistically Sasuke should have slaughtered him, but of course naruto has main character plot armor. Kishi fucked up with the power distribution in part 2, made sasuke too godly, so he gave naruto sasge mode(kaio ken), fox mode(oozaru) and last but not least, the super sayain fox mode transformations as cheap fixes to even out the playing field while he made sasuke and the uchiha the hypest shit ever....
    Honestly I'd like for the manga to be re-written but this time without editor mingling. Like a light novel or something... I heard they had a lot to do with why the manga got so painful to read

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    Registered User 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity KiSwordsman's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Chameleone View Post
    The fight was a draw cause it was written that way but if we we're to break it down logistically Sasuke should have slaughtered him, but of course naruto has main character plot armor. Kishi fucked up with the power distribution in part 2, made sasuke too godly, so he gave naruto sasge mode(kaio ken), fox mode(oozaru) and last but not least, the super sayain fox mode transformations as cheap fixes to even out the playing field while he made sasuke and the uchiha the hypest shit ever....
    Honestly I'd like for the manga to be re-written but this time without editor mingling. Like a light novel or something... I heard they had a lot to do with why the manga got so painful to read
    I can agree with some of that but you can not say Chakra mechs weren't made the way they were to combat the power of the tailed beasts, which were a thing since the very first chapter with the nine tailed fox. Come on now, as much crap as Naruto was given to combat Sasuke, it wasn't something that was entirely on Naruto's side of the fence.

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    It was a draw, that's clear and simple. Anyone who claims otherwise is just biased. Neither man could go on, which Naruto told us, otherwise one or both would die from the blood loss.

    Symbolically, Naruto won because he managed to change Sasuke's way of thinking and show that he was right. I dunno how, but it is what it is.
    Actually I wonder why Naruto didn't just heal his hand or is it because only his right hand can use ying-yang release. He did create a new eye for Kakashi.

    ---------- Post added at 08:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:36 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    The problem with understanding the fight that I see is that people can't tell the difference between the kind of restraint Naruto was using. They hear Sasuke say Naruto's hholding back and they get this idea that he was lowering his chakra, or using weaker versions of his attacks for Sasuke's sake. That's not what happened.

    Naruto held back against Sasuke by not attempting lethal blows. He DIDN'T hold back in the sense of using his full power. Naruto's full strength comes from Rikudou Sage Mode. Which he used. Hell, he used it because he needed it, or else he would've died.

    Sasuke wasn't holding back in the sense that he used everything he had to kill Naruto, and it wasn't enough. That's fine though, because it took all Naruto could muster to hold back that onslaught; the full amount of strength he could scrape out, EVERYTHING in his being to keep from dying. Just to keep from dying.

    Now the real fuck-up is assuming that had Naruto wanted to kill Sasuke, that things would've gone differently. It wouldn't, because Naruto's power level would've remained the exact same. The only difference is he would've wasted more chakra and potentially lost because he would've given Sasuke more opportunities to steal chakra from him. Add to this the fact that Sasuke was far more handicapped for the fight than Naruto (lack of knowledge of his doujutsu while Naruto is a Senjutsu master and a Perfect Jinchuuriki, less chakra than Naruto, no access to all the abilities he could have, less stamina and chakra, unenhanced body).

    The thread creator mentioned DBZ, so I'll use an analogy that they would understand perfectly: Vegeta vs. Goku during the Buu saga. Vegeta and Goku was evenly matched in their fight, but only because Goku didn't activate SS3 to use against Vegeta, who was only about SS2 level thanks to Babidi's magic. That fight proved Goku was clearly stronger, because he could match Vegeta blow for blow without having to power up to his strongest form, while Vegeta wanted to kill Goku, and Goku only wanted to stop Vegeta. Sasuke vs. Naruto was similar, except or the power levels. Naruto not only started the fight in SS3, he surpassed that level and still failed to do better than a draw.

    There's no doubt Naruto is stronger than Sasuke, that's always been true. It's just this manga isn't DBZ. Fights aren't won by having higher power levels. The more powerful ninja never wins. The smarter, more versatile ninja does. Always. Whether from exploiting weaknesses, or through a masterfully executed plan. It's part of the reason Sasuke vs. Naruto came down to an all out brawl with no strategy. It had to go that way.

    For Naruto's sake.
    I can't believe you still think Sasuke is stronger than Naruto. Your bias runs really deep. How can you believe that holding back only means not trying to kill. Two examples is Itachi vs Sasuke and You vs a 9 year old. When Itachi fought Sasuke did he not hold back and not use his two most powerful techs, (the two forbidden eye techs of the Uchia) plus he was nearly blind and sick as a dog. Does that mean Sasuke was stronger than him.

    So if you had an average 9 year old trying to kill you barehanded you (even if you were tired) would use your full power to try and stop him? Of course not right. You would hold back and try your best to win right. How would this change if he brought a knife, I'm sure you would be a little more serious but would still hold back. That is how the fight with Naruto and Sasuke went. Naruto held back and only got a little serious to stop and not kill Sasuke. It takes more out of you to not return killing intent with killing intent.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted ninjabot's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    Quote Originally Posted by Me
    There's no doubt Naruto is stronger than Sasuke, that's always been true.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigBadDogg
    I can't believe you still think Sasuke is stronger than Naruto.
    See what I meant about reading comprehension folks?

    ---------- Post added at 02:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:41 AM ----------

    Quote Quote:
    When Itachi fought Sasuke did he not hold back and not use his two most powerful techs, (the two forbidden eye techs of the Uchia) plus he was nearly blind and sick as a dog. Does that mean Sasuke was stronger than him.
    Itachi used all of his most powerful attacks that would have left Sasuke's eyes in tact in order to convince Sasuke he was after his eyes. He couldn't use the magatama or the Totsuka, because both of them would've left nothing on the battlefield. He used all of his Mangekyou Sharingan abilities however which, just like with Naruto, is the highest power he could muster.

    Another reason this analogy doesn't work is because while Itachi didn't use the strongest attacks in his arsenal, the databook 4 clearly states that Naruto's most powerful attack is the Bijuudama FRS.

    And Naruto used that.

    Twice.

    At the same time.

    With all of the natural energy Kurama could give him.

    Quote Originally Posted by KiSwordsman
    I can agree with some of that but you can not say Chakra mechs weren't made the way they were to combat the power of the tailed beasts, which were a thing since the very first chapter with the nine tailed fox. Come on now, as much crap as Naruto was given to combat Sasuke, it wasn't something that was entirely on Naruto's side of the fence.
    Yeah. This reminds me of an old thread where a guy tried to say the Sharingan is what's responsible for the DBZ-esque power creep. That everyone else is becoming more powerful because the Sharingan abilities kept getting stronger and I was all "No man. The Sharingan is only made more powerful in response to other power-ups. You won't see Sharingan wielders blowing up mountains until someone else does it first."

    Cue Bijuudama reveal.

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    Registered User 上級員 / Jyoukuuin / Sr. Member Sharikaaria's Avatar
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    Re: is it just me or was the Naruto and Sasuke, actual, fight a draw?

    Quote Originally Posted by ninjabot View Post
    There's no doubt Naruto is stronger than Sasuke, that's always been true. It's just this manga isn't DBZ. Fights aren't won by having higher power levels. The more powerful ninja never wins. The smarter, more versatile ninja does. Always. Whether from exploiting weaknesses, or through a masterfully executed plan. It's part of the reason Sasuke vs. Naruto came down to an all out brawl with no strategy. It had to go that way.

    For Naruto's sake.
    If anything, Naruto was usually the one to demonstrate utmost creativity during a battle. Sasuke could do the same, but Naruto was noteworthy for it. Even if the battle had been more strategic, they would have ended up pulling tricks on each other without landing any hits, and it would have never ended. This fight wasn't precisely an all out brawl just to help Naruto win. It was an all out brawl to demonstrate who had the stronger will, especially because the two were more or less on par with their respective strengths. It came down to what Jiraiya had said long ago when he and Orochimaru were arguing about talent. Jiraiya stated the will to continue and never give up (or something like that) was most important, and the end basically proved that. Sasuke's beliefs did not drive his strength enough to defeat Naruto. Naruto was resolute with beliefs that didn't have a single shred of insecurity. If the opposite was true, then the outcome may not have been the same.

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