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Thread: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

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    Registered User 下級員 / Kakyuuin / Jr. Member
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    Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    I feel like the series was rushed way too quick in preparation for Naruto: The Last (which obviously was created months in advance and they probably didn't want to delay the movie).

    I still don't believe Sasuke's character development from wanting to achieve peace and wanting to kill Naruto as a way of taking on the burden himself. Also, Kishimoto never showed Sasuke showing Sakura any sort of affection and all of a sudden at the end he does?!? Plus, Sakura is still madly in love with him after all the crap he put her through?! Don't get me started on how he portrays women in this series. I feel as if Kishi jumbled all the fans desires and crammed them at the end to please fans (sasuke naruto final fight, sasuke-sakura, naruto-hinata, etc.)

    Sasuke had no regrets until the very end when he loses to Naruto. Only at his defeat does he believe that perhaps Naruto's way is the right one (seriously?). Sasuke was JUST beginning to follow Madara's path.

    Madara/Kaguya had set up the Infinite Tsukuyomi already, they both claim they wish for peace in a world where peace was not possible through collaboration. Collaboration allows for temporal peace but forced peace would be "true" peace since there would literally be no fights (genjutsu). (this ties into government but let's not go there) Sasuke wanted true peace at the very end and was willing to burden himself in the darkness as did Madara, (Itachi's words hold true) in order to achieve it. That being said, IMO Sasuke would still be willing to cast the world in genjutsu or control it with his powers if all he sees on his journey are wars/fights.

    Sasuke is still a villain in my book, his loss only entertains Naruto's views on peace as a temporary option, however Sasuke wants to see the world for himself and decide then what should be done.

    TL;DR very bad character development as a result of rush to end series, sasuke can be considered final villain because of his desire for peace and his method of obtaining it, but temporary settles for naruto's views as a result of loss.
    kishimoto getting political and gets a pass on the answer to the question of how should one go about achieving peace through his character's actions (naruto wants to collaborate, sasuke wants to decide for himself how the state of the world is before he makes any decision)

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    MH Senpai 神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    Yes, he can and is considered a final villain.

    Same

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Holt's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    Sasuke always suppressed his feelings. In the past he showed he actually cared about sakura. Also he felt the best way to go about his feelings was to kill his best friend. Can't expect him to show romantic interest with that sorta mindset.

    Even before his final showdown with naruto, when sakura confessed her love (again), he was literally shaking in his boots. He cared for her no doubt (signified by tapping her like itachi did him) in the period between leaving the village and naruto becoming hokage, its understandable that he got with her. She was like his only choice (Karins bat shit crazy, he never had a connection with ino)

    While sasuke still wants to change the world (for better), its established he's not gonna go about it by killing kages and stirring war to make him worlds hated. If he has a good idea, then ofcourse no one would have an issue with that.

    But yeah he was the final villain. Considering naruto, the kages, bijuu etc would all be dead if he had succeeded. And he wasn't messing around either.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    An antagonist, yes. A villain? No.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Junior's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    An antagonist, yes. A villain? No.
    Cherry picking.

    Antagonist -> Enemy -> Villain (they're called synonyms).

    Can we stop trying to add our own bias to a character's development? The fact that Sasuke was the final villain doesn't take away from the fact that he earned his redemption. If anything, it means a lot more.
    2013 MH Resolution: Ignore the fanboys.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Knightmare of heaven 0's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?



    The Antagonist doesn't necessarily have to be a bad guy.We have series like Death Note or Code Geass where the main character (Protagonist) goes on doing wrong things and the people who stand in their way,who do the right thing,are Antagonists.

    In Naruto,Sasuke tried to be a villian,the evil against which the world would unite and fight.But he gave up and couldn't do it in the end,so Iam not sure that we can call him a villian.Antagonist might be the most suitable term here.

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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Knightmare of heaven 0 View Post
    In Naruto,Sasuke tried to be a villian,the evil against which the world would unite and fight.But he gave up and couldn't do it in the end,so Iam not sure that we can call him a villian.Antagonist might be the most suitable term here.
    I remember when The Joker tried to drop deadly laughing gas onto Gotham city.

    He didn't succeed. Guess he wasn't a villain.
    2013 MH Resolution: Ignore the fanboys.

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Knightmare of heaven 0's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    Welp,Sasuke trying to do evil might be enough of a reason to consider him as a villian =p

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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    Quote Originally Posted by shahdan View Post
    An antagonist, yes. A villain? No.
    He is both in this case. A villain because he planned on doing something bad - killing people and apparently being the cause of misery. That is very villainous. He was also a villain because of his ideas that clashed against Naruto's, but I guess that's an antagonist as well?

    Funny thing is, Sasuke throughout Part II could go either way. From his point of view, he could have been a protagonist because everything he did was for the sake of revenge based on the losses and shitty life he had thanks to his brother and Konoha. From a different point of view, he would be an antagonist because he was willing to kill Team 7 for chasing him and was willing to dive into the darkness for power and help a villain out just to get revenge. After all that, he wanted to kill the elders and destroy Konoha as part of revenge. So really, one could either sympathize with Sasuke or be against him, it really depends.

    An antagonist doesn't necessarily have to be a villain, just FYI.

    Same

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member shahdan's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He is both in this case. A villain because he planned on doing something bad - killing people and apparently being the cause of misery. That is very villainous. He was also a villain because of his ideas that clashed against Naruto's, but I guess that's an antagonist as well?

    Funny thing is, Sasuke throughout Part II could go either way. From his point of view, he could have been a protagonist because everything he did was for the sake of revenge based on the losses and shitty life he had thanks to his brother and Konoha. From a different point of view, he would be an antagonist because he was willing to kill Team 7 for chasing him and was willing to dive into the darkness for power and help a villain out just to get revenge. After all that, he wanted to kill the elders and destroy Konoha as part of revenge. So really, one could either sympathize with Sasuke or be against him, it really depends.

    An antagonist doesn't necessarily have to be a villain, just FYI.
    Well, that is your interpretation. I don't see what good Naruto did in representing a banner like Will of Fire from a village that itself has caused nothing but undue misery and blood shed. It was nothing but a clash of ideals, which would make it antagonistic, not villainous.

    ---------- Post added at 10:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Junior View Post
    Cherry picking.

    Antagonist -> Enemy -> Villain (they're called synonyms).

    Can we stop trying to add our own bias to a character's development? The fact that Sasuke was the final villain doesn't take away from the fact that he earned his redemption. If anything, it means a lot more.
    And what are synonyms? They are synonymous terms that have nothing to do with the sense of the word, or the actual meaning. According to the Literature Dictionary, an antagonist is someone who opposes. It can be anything, even a natural disaster that halts or makes the path of the protagonist difficult.

    So this isn't bias or cheery picking, but commonsense in regards to terms. I am not talking about any redemption but the simple difference between the terms. That is a separate debate altogether.
    Last edited by shahdan; November 12, 2014 at 09:08 AM.

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    Sasuke was not a villain in all of Part 1. For the vast majority of Part 2 he was not a villain.

    As far as Sasuke being the final villain, he certainly was not. He was an antagonist.

    Sasuke's villainy, his bad acts, stopped when talked to the Hokages. Sasuke's actions once this war started were not evil. You can argue all you want how they were wrong, how they misguided, how they were stupid etc. And if you say all those things you are describing an antagonist because what Sasuke wanted directly opposed what Naruto wanted.

    An antagonist is the foil of the protagonist.

    A villain is someone who is performing evil acts. Sasuke's acts after fighting Kaguya were not evil. Just because you disagree with his actions does not make them evil.

    So has Sasuke ever been a villain? Absolutely. Was he the final villain. Not even close.
    Last edited by Delbi; November 12, 2014 at 01:16 AM.
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    Registered User 英雄メンバー / Eiyuu Menbaa / Hero Member Knightmare of heaven 0's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    Quote Originally Posted by M3J View Post
    He is both in this case.
    I concur.

    Also are we ignoring that Sasuke was trying to be the evil of the world? He was going to shed blood by killing Naruto and the five Kages.The Kages aren't innocent but still.

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    MH Senpai 神のごとし / Kami no Gotoshi / Godlike M3J's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    Clash of ideals was protagonist vs. antagonist, clash of action was hero vs. villain. Sasuke was willing to commit acts of evil, while Naruto wanted to use good. Naruto wasn't just about protecting Konoha with the will of fire, he was about protecting people while Sasuke was about hurting or using pain for peace. That to me is being a villain. As Delbi, I never considered Sasuke a villain until he vowed to kill the innocent citizens of Konoha up until he vowed to protect Konoha after listening to the hokage.

    I can see why you guys say he's not a villain, but I disagree. And I was one of the ones saying his actions weren't really evil or had evil intent or whatever it is I said.

    Same

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    Registered User MH中毒 / MH Chuudoku / MH Addicted Delbi's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    He was certainly Evil for a time, but his actions in the end served a greater purpose and that was peace. Granted, his means for achieving peace sucked donkey dick, but Sasuke was no evil by any means.

    Simply using "evil means" does not make one evil. Was Itachi evil?
    "The line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

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    MangaHelper 有名人 / Yuumeijin / Celebrity Impossibility's Avatar
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    Re: Can Sasuke be considered a "final villain"?

    In the broad sense of the word, yes. Of course, that lasted for about three chapters, so it's pretty much a blip.

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