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There you go, I am not making stuff up. Sasuke really seemed keen on being the only one allowed to defeat Naruto at least until the Sage showed up.
If Sasuke is at his nicest point in the series and still cares nothing about Sakura and Kakashi it's because they really don't matter for whatever he has in store for the future.
However, I do agree he needs to be more nice towards everyone else in general and his post-Itachi interactions with Taka and Orochimaru prove that he can be civil, respectful and even apologetic if the person at hand matters to him.
Basically, Sasuke needs to care more about others than he currently does or else he will remain an ass to those around him whom he doesn't acknowledge.
It is a evolution he took through the entire series from wanting to be acknowledged by others, which was selfish, towards wanting to protect others at all costs even if they are a former enemy like Obito, which is an attitude that proves his selflessness even if not entirely rational and ill advised.
You can't fail to acknowledge Naruto's development like that, his idealism kind of gets out of hand which gives Sasuke valid points such as murdering Obito was really the best solution and would have avoided this whole mess with Madara and Kaguya, however, his reasons are not personal and they are not for his own benefit either; sparing Pain and Obito really had nothing to offer him on the long run when he did it.
Again, I am not making stuff up, it's something the author himself acknowledges and made explicit so you can't really make a case for Sasuke not being self-centered.
Naruto isn't putting his friends above humanity either:
He knows that Sasuke is right in that focusing on Kaguya is their duty, he just has heroic tendecies which he can't control.
He isn't openly saying that he will protect just Sakura and Kakashi at the risk of losing everything else, he just protected them because he has a drive to protect people (typical hero syndrome of the shonen protagonist) and Sasuke knows how much trouble that can create to them.
Your description doesn't match Naruto, it matches Obito. Obito is the one who took his friendship and love above everyone else and turned against the whole world by putting his personal happiness and relationships as a goal beyond reality itself.
Sasuke is self-centered because his motivations and morals lie directly with his personal connections with his deceased loved ones and his goals are oriented towards a vision he wants to enact for personal reasons and not because he cares for others in general.
That's why Itachi said a Hokage must be acknowledged first as a person instead of the person being acknowledged for becoming Hokage and it came to Naruto's mind the first time Sasuke mentioned his new goal.
This was disproven by how Naruto handled his post-Hinata speech fight against Obito.
Naruto fought because Obito was trying to destroy everything he and everyone else believed in and even when his comrades were lost he kept on struggling because giving up would be a betrayal towards everyone who ever believed in him.
He did things because other people believed in him to protect and lead them not just because of his personal desire to protect those dear to him, an aspect which is unavoidable.
This is best shown by him saving Nagato and Obito, he had every personal reason to hate them guts but he put morals and the feelings of the enemy above his own and this speaks leagues about his selflessness.
This panel shows it that Sasuke had both his hands up to slash through Sakura and Madara whereas Naruto, who can sense feelings by the way, was abundantly distressed and in a hurry to get to Sakura before Sasuke which gives even more credence towards Sasuke's ruthless intentions.
I know you are not a shipper, at least you made yourself clear on the subject, yet people will really misunderstand you if you try to make a case for Sasuke's ruthless brutality corresponding with Sakura's intentions.
Sakura had no clue about what she was doing and I wholeheartedly agree that Sasuke can't take her serious when she jumps without planning out of her inferiority complex tendencies but as sure as hell she wasn't intending to be cut down like a pig's corpse just to lure Madara's attention.
The entire scene focused on how Sasuke had no quarrels with gutting her and that she was really depressed to see how much he didn't care about her actions and well being so it is a no-brainer that Kishimoto wanted to get across that Sasuke no longer had any particular feeling towards her.
Current Sasuke doesn't care neither about Sakura or Kakashi regarless of their insignificance before the salvation of humanity, if the war was already over he would probably turn his back on them and treat them as strangers he barely bumps on the street from time to time.
Last edited by 1337 haxor; July 06, 2014 at 05:40 PM.
That's not being self-centered, Sasuke isn't looking out for himself or being egotistical. I don't see how he doesn't care about others when he's actively risking his life to save others from the Infinite Tsukuyomi.Quote:
Or, he is focusing on the bigger picture and knows if he or Naruto dies, Sakura and Kakashi are dead anyway. Sasuke isn't gonna risk the entire world for the lives of two people, which is why I'm gonna wait and see if Sasuke changes his behavior towards the two. Sasuke did go from treating Naruto harshly even few chapters ago to getting along with him and putting up with Naruto's odd plan without an insult.
Long story short: wait and see before judging Sasuke. He hated Naruto, but he still was willing to sacrifice his life to save Naruto from Haku's needles. Sasuke found Sakura extremely annoying, but at the start of chuunin exam, he showed her respect and cared about her, which was evident when he woke up after Sound ninjas' assault and when Gaara had Sakura pinned to a tree with his sand hand.
You do realize that if Naruto or Sasuke die trying to save Kakashi or Sakura, then Kakashi and Sakura are dead anyway, right? Notice how when Naruto was distracted and despite Sasuke keeping an eye on the enemy, Kaguya still attacked. I don't think anyone complaining about Sasuke's behavior really understands the fight - let up for one second and Kaguya could strike a killing blow. Even when they were on their guard, Kaguya managed to surprise them on more than one occasion, even managing to separate Sasuke from Naruto.Quote:
Didn't Zabuza say he didn't care about Haku at all, but at the end confessed he did love Haku and care for him?
But Minato didn't matter to him at all. Sasuke just had no reason to be a jerk toward teh hokage or to Naruto, but he's probably being a jerk to Kakashi and Sakura as a way to discourage them from interfering. Sakura tried to interfere to create an opening, but it didn't do a thing against Madara.Quote:
Sasuke was disrespectful to Naruto even after Kaguya took over Madara's body, despite Naruto being the most important person for few chapters.
For now, yes. But later, who knows. I'm pretty sure even if Sasuke doesn't completely stop being an ass, Naruto will somehow be able to change Sasuke for the better. Again.Quote:
Or, Naruto did it because he wanted to feel right, that he was a good person achieving what Jiraiya wanted. He seems to be more keen on protecting people that are close to him or people he knows over the people that he doesn't know. Naruto could be trying to protect and save others because he wants to be surrounded by friends, and he could be wanting to create peace because he wants to make Jiraiya proud of him. Naruto did say he didn't understand what Jiraiya was talking about, he just wanted Jiraiya to be proud of him or something.Quote:
What if Nagato was spared because Naruto didn't want Jiraiya to be disappointed in him? What if Obito was spared because Naruto thought Obito would keep him safe? My point is, if you can call Sasuke self-centered, I can call Naruto self-centered as well. Purely because we can interpret their actions. I don't think Sasuke is self-centered anymore, and Naruto hasn't been self-centered for plenty of arcs.
I don't trust interviews, and it seems Kishi was talking about Sasuke's quest for vengeance, to which I have said that made Sasuke self-centered, which was at its most obvious and apparent when Sasuke said he'd crush Konoha.Quote:
He didn't put more of an effort in killing bijuu or keeping them out of enemies' hands just because they were his friends, even though the bijuu could regenerate and would have been happy that they didn't become part of the Juubi. Naruto is risking his life for two friends when he should be focusing on surviving and beating Kaguya/Madara, as without him or Sasuke the world is doomed.Quote:
Minus the whole turning to evil thing, it does match Naruto. Naruto isn't doing what's right in this fight (if Kaguya and Madara weren't as overpowered, Sasuke would be so totally in the wrong here), he shouldn't be focusing on protecting Sakura and Kakashi unless he can keep himself safe.
That's not self-centered, that's putting others before himself. Sasuke is fighting to protect others, not himself. He's risking his life to protect others, not himself. That's the opposite of self-centered. He went from being self-centered to unknown, as Sasuke could go back to being self-centered after this war as he implied when he joined the fight. If he tries to become the hokage regardless of what others say or want, or however he implied or said it for a while after joining the fight, then yeah, he's back to being self-centered.Quote:
So, Naruto trying to protect others and not wanting to lose them because he doesn't want to feel alone is self-centered? If Naruto prioritizes the lives of his friends over the lives of others, that's not self-centered? If Naruto is hypothetically willing to protect HInata over a random fodder just because he knows her, although she could defend herself while the fodder can't, that isn't self-centered?Quote:
There is not. Sakura jumped in and let herself be stabbed (or put herself in harm's way, anyway), obviously she doesn't care about being cut through as long as it's not a killing strike. She didn't even care about that, she was crying more about Sasuke not looking at her. I saw the page, and nothing says Sasuke was gonna cut through Sakura. It said he either would, or he would have moved his sword to avoid hitting Sakura.Quote:
Read the page again. It had nothing to do with Sasuke. Remember that Naruto can sense, and he sensed Limbo Madara about to attack Sakura, which is why he jumped in and saved her. See the drawing and sound effect that implies Naruto and Sasuke defended themselves. It gives absolutely no credence towards Sasuke's ruthless intentions.
I don't see any brutality on his side, just him being a jerk. As I said, I'm waiting before I judge Sasuke. Let's see how he is after teh war when there's no pressure or weight of the world on his shoulders or Naruto's. Will Sasuke go back to being self-centered? Will he still treat Sakura badly while treating Karin well? Will he become a better person and show his interest in Sakura? There's no telling, and nothing has said he's bad or definitely good, other than the Sage entrusting him with power. Sasuke is ambiguous since you can say his attitude towards Kakashi and Sakura aren't him being in any way bad, but him focusing on the bigger picture. You can also say that Sasuke could just as easily go back to being self-centered and trying in any way to become hokage, even if it includes killing Naruto like he may have implied.Quote:
But she was intending for Madara to be focused on her so he wouldn't focus on Sasuke or Naruto until it was too late. Again, you have no proof that Sasuke was planning on gutting her, as he easily could have moved his sword upward to avoid Sakura and hit Madara instead. Even if he was going to cut through Sakura, I doubt Sakura would have minded so much because she did volunteer to be the decoy, and didn't Sasuke know about her ability to heal from any injury she gets?Quote:
Maybe it was Kishi's attempt, maybe it wasn't. There's no proof that Sasuke no longer had any feelings. As I said, Sasuke's focused on saving teh world, not saving two people. Sakura was being an annoying whiny idiot that she was in Part I just because Sasuke wouldn't look at her out of concern and was focused on the enemy so the enemy wouldn't take any of them by surprise. The only way Kishi will get across the point that Sasuke has no feelings for Sakura is after the war.
An assumption with no basis.Quote:
MJ3, your points are completely outside the logic of this manga, you have a worrisome tendency to subvert events outside of context and deny the obvious, even from official sources, when they don't suit your bizarre view of Sasuke in leather pants.
Before pointlessly trying to call me out on attacking you instead of your argument you should consider taking my words seriously and re-reading the entire manga without any preconceptions towards Naruto or Sasuke because as for now you are reading a completely different franchise than me.
Let me elaborate:
Last edited by 1337 haxor; July 07, 2014 at 05:13 AM.
Naruto acknowledging Hinata Any other inane requests or do you still plan to keep your head in the ground?
Last edited by Brill; July 15, 2014 at 01:14 PM.
Last edited by Brill; July 15, 2014 at 01:45 PM.
How can I not have preconceptions towards Naruto when he's the reason I got into this manga? I could not care less about Sasuke, I am defending him without bias. If there was bias, I would be attacking him and making up stuff about him, like most members here seem to do.
However, I am interested to see the argument against Sasuke after this chapter. His behavior was the opposite of members say.
Can't believe I used to debate this this, need to find the old thread to see wtf my pairing was and see how right or wrong I was
My first post in the old thread:
July 03, 2009 02:18 AM
Last edited by Weapon_X; July 15, 2014 at 06:03 PM.
If you was lost on a deserted island, and the only person who saved you was a guy you hated with all your guts I'm sure you'd be grateful too. I'm not holding my breath till that next CH because kishimoto could pull a 180 and make Sasuke say some Jerk ungrateful line. If he thanks them and apologizes to Sakura then I'll agree that you was right.
But Kishimoto is wishy washy with the pairing anything can go till we get a kiss or some mutual feelings of love from a pairing.
But I do think this Chapter should make Sasuke change his view point and understanding that he does need others help. I'm just happy he didn't teleport Sakura in his place, what if she didn't take her jacket off what would he of switch places with?
Why would he apologize to Sakura? If anything, she only should get an apology from the attempts on her life. I'm pretty sure Sasuke as who he was wouldn't have thanked Sakura or caught her anyway. So yeah, proof enough for me that he's changing. I'm sure Sasuke caught Sakura because his life or Naruto's was not in danger, but again, that doesn't make him bad.
Mutual feelings of love in Sasuke and Sakura's place. This chapter just hinted that Sasuke might love Sakura, but it did establish Sasuke does care about Sakura. No amount of arguing can change that, only the manga can. At this point, it's pretty much the same as Sakura and Naruto, but where Sakura confirmed she did not love Naruto (at least the way she loves Sasuke), Sasuke has not said anything yet. There's a pretty good chance that Sasuke can deeply care for Sakura but be interested in Karin.
Sasuke will probably understand that, if he was told about Ashura and Indra. I'm sure Sasuke would have switched places with Tobi, not Sakura, although I'm not sure if his ability requires switching anyway.
But on the romance side of things, If Sasuke did take Sakura's feelings that would leave a heart broken Naruto and Karin. While Naruto could just go for his second prize Hinata, Karin has noting to fall back on. If Sakura went for Naruto then it's Hinata who has noting. It's crazy to see how Kishimoto will end this manga.