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didn't hear about that yet, but it's a disgrace how he can treat his own people, massacre them with heavy weapons and all the european leaders are doing is to tell them to be "peaceful" ~.~
Bahrain on the other hand seems to have found a way out of the violence - surely not without pressure? <_<
edit: I'm thoroughly disgusted. using bombs against demonstrations, don't even know what to say;
Last edited by Akainu; February 21, 2011 at 02:43 PM.
Gaddafi still has a nasty reputation in the states because of his connection to Lockerbie. I'm hardly surprised warplanes are bombing Tropoli. There are reports that mercenaries are being brought in from sub-Saharan Africa too. It seems that he no longer controls the eastern half of the country. The diplomat to the Arab League and deputy diplomat to the UN have already defected. There are reports of fighter pilots landing in Malta to defect, rather than bomb their fellow citizens. With Gaddafi's current location unknown, I doubt he will remain in power much longer.
Gadaffi is almost Ceausescu like. His brutality and flamboyance. What a disgusting mix. I hope he has ran to Venezuela as they are saying. His son was ranting on state TV yesterday, his message was "we will fight till the last bullet".
As with the UN and AL diplomats, the libyan ambassadors to China, India, Indonesia and Poland have resigned. Another one of his ministers (secretary of protocol) has resigned on air. The Austrian Army says that the Libyan airspace is closed which is stopping people from evacuating.
Gadaffi apparently will speak on State TV soon while his son is denying that they have used planes to bomb cities.
Last edited by Imperium; February 21, 2011 at 04:46 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Gadaffi in TV was awesome bs, seriously. "See, it's raining here, I'm totally in Tripolis since it's the only town in the world where it's raining". That would make for awesome comedy if it wasn't for the dire situation he put his people in.
On the other hand, it doesn't seem like he's still holding control, at least not in all of Libya, especially the east, which is rumored to be the reason for calling in mercenaries. If that's true it's an amazingly fast erosion of power despite being one of the most repressive regimes. This in turn makes me wonder if it then will spread on to Syria with similar bloodshed :/
Oh, also since Gadaffi always acted and saw himself as africas leader do you guys think it could continue down south? .-.
lol, Gaddafi says we haven't used the force yet.
He says that the people responsible for the protests are not from libya and he suspects that qaida is involved in this.
Last edited by DLord.Van.Buuren; February 22, 2011 at 11:55 AM.
I love how these dictators think that bringing up quaida will make the US support them, as if Bush were still in office
According to Reuters eastern Libya is under the control of people's committees. The regular army stood down and the mercenaries have been round up. From what I have read Gaddafi was never very popular in the east anyway. It seems that he deliberately kept the army week during his rule, fearing a military coup. All officers have ranks below his, Colonel. The real army are paramilitary mercenaries from the Sahel and upper Nile states. Apparently Gadaffi maintains power through patronage to the various major tribes, most of whom have abandoned him. It's a matter of time before his rule collapses but there will be a lot more bloodshed.
I'm shocked there hasn't been any protests in Syria. The regime is one of the most repressive, from what I understand. I know the army is very powerful, I know they were very loyal to Asad's father. I don't know if they are as loyal to him. The whole military is stocked with his clansmen, all of whom are very insular, part of a very secretive religious sect. If protests start in Syria I am willing to believe they will be the bloodiest.
China is already prepared for protests. Maybe revolts will spread south. Conditions are so different in sub-Saharan Africa I wonder if the people are prepared to overthrow the government. It's so much poorer and so many of the countries have just emerged from brutal civil wars.
Gadaffi always was funny as hell in his speeches, as I said he's a big times troll
It would be great if he could finally be forced out though...
'foreign policy' has a top five of authoritarian leaders to go next containing Castro, Lukashenko, Kim Yong Il, Mugabe and Gadaffi iirc. naturally it would be good to see any of them go and protests spreading to china shows that it's not as much a cultural thing anymore - in other words, mass media might really have a role there.
contrary to that, in the cultural seemingly similar central asia, i.e. the *-stan states, there's no sign of protests. all of them have the post communist transition behind them and there were uprisings before, even quite lately ... hmmm
Official estimates are saying over 300 dead in Libya, unofficial it is probably more. That's as much as the Egyptian protests which has more than 13 times the population and had a longer timespan of protests.
Gadaffi's time has effectively ended. It will now only be a matter of how long and how brutal his fall will be. And I hope to god the tribes don't turn on each other. As brutal and dictatorial he was, he held them together. Similar to the Ba'ath in Iraq. If the revolution convulses into tribal lines then I fear the whole place will become anarchy.
With Syria there were protests initially but it just petered out. Its weird but i think with Syria a lot of people will be scared that the whole society will disintegrate if there is mass unrest. They are neighboured by two states that perpetuate in and out of total chaos (Iraq, Lebanon) and one that is hostile and occupies their territory (Israel). It could be a simple case of the general populace not wanting to make things worse? And a quick glance at Iraq can show it can be much much worse.
How come that freedom of religions, freedom of speech, etc are fundamental rights over here? All because of democracy. If states would be run by Christian churches then things over here wouldn't have looked nicely either
In the Arabian world, the revolutions are set against potentates who have some dynasty ideology: I'll keep my power till my candle burns out and then I will give the leading power to one of my sons (their unreasonable, wrong reasoning). Opposing parties are forbidden by law, people opposing the state leader are imprisoned, etc
My biggest fear is however that the vacuum will effect Islamic states like Iran. The Shah in Iran was driven away by young and old, by men and women,... with the usage of slogans containing freedom and democracy. BUT look at Iran nowadays, I can say that women were better off with the Shah than with the current Ayatollahs.
Do not misunderstand me, my friend. I am far from Islamophobic. I am truly supporting you all in your fights or protests (dependable from country to country) against those potentates. Defeat those bastards but make sure that religious fundamentalism won't reign the new state because then things won't go forward either.
Last edited by Koen; February 23, 2011 at 12:56 PM.
Gadaffi is on his last legs. He's losing the country more and more as we speak. I just saw a list of diplomatic defectors, and it was large. Ill try and re-find the link if i can.
About Iran specifically. It had a great chance at democracy and progression and with help could have been more progressive then any other country in the region. But short term interests of the US and Britain toppled that (28 Mordad coup).
And to be blunt, while women rights advanced under the shah immeasurably, the revolution of 1979 is an anomaly but it has helped Iran more than the Shah ever did as a whole. Iran's infamous brain drain or high health care would never have happened under the shah although the political and social repression are still the same. There is a tendency to look at the Shah's pro-western reign favourably after the anti-western stance this present regime has taken. But what is forgotten is how big of a fuck*r that guy was. But he was a fuck*r who did less for the people, then the current fuck*rs. The current regime have at least vastly improved the healthcare and education of the country. Iran's HDI surpasses all of its major neighbours with the exception of Saudi Arabia. This is not excusing the current regime, but they are definitely better off then they were under the shah even the revolutionary guards have nothing on the brutality of the Shah's SAVAK...they are both horrible though.
Last edited by Imperium; February 25, 2011 at 05:38 PM.
Finally, finally the fucking airheads of the eu moved their blimps out of Gadaffis ass and at least put up sanctions - way too little and way, way too late, but anyway. really, it's a shame.
A well, figure I should write a bit more on topic even though there are bits and brackets in the spoiler tabs ^^;
Since we're talking about Libya mostly atm. do you think it will desintegrate if it takes longer? Some guys on TV here said its east might seperate or the tribes might even fight like in Lebanon, but tbh I can hardly imagine the people would want that. More than two states or civil war, I see one dead family - props to you calling for the Ceaușescuend.
Its getting worse and worse in Libya. The death toll is beginning to exceed all of the other protests and revolutions plus the Iranian election protests a couple of years ago. Its fast becoming a humanitarian concern. Its estimated at 1,000 - 2,000 and rising.
There is an interim rival government that has been created. Maybe that will be a basis in which to build on, when he is finally toppled. Hopefully it wont descend into clan violence like Somalia. I think that is probably a better example, because if im not mistaken lebanon had some real religious tension as well. Which is not really there with Libya.
You would hope it ends with his fall, but now with so many armed people roaming around. Mercenaries for hire, vigilantes, ex-army, ex-police, normal police and army etc its already different from Egypt and Tunisia. Its going to take some serious work for it to come to a peaceful conclusion.
The UN security council passed a resolution on sanctions which include arms embargo. It seems like they're going to start a No-Fly Zone over Libya. And assets of Gadaffi and his regime have been frozen. 30 billion in the US alone! They also referred Libya to the International criminal courts.
It seems like everyone is getting tough on them. It doesnt seem like he can hold out for much longer.
Last edited by Imperium; February 28, 2011 at 07:22 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost