we can only speculate on what Rubel might be tlaking about.
here's some points:
1. Rubel didn't treat Rafaela well, he USED her via BLACKMAIL
2. Both Clare and Rafaela do know "bonds of love". Clare -> Teresa and Rafaela -> Luciela (but so does nearly everyone, lots of literary "pairings" in Claymore, which is what makes it so good)
3. there's some interesting connections between the two of them:
Clare <-> Teresa <-> Rafaela
Clare <-> Destroyer <-> Rafaela
Clare <-> Rubel <-> Rafaela
Clare <-> Irene <-> Rafaela
personally for me:
Rubel knowingly is setting up the entire course of events. Rubel somehow knows that Renee and R+L have been captured by Riful, and he just happens to be lurking in the shadows out of danger of being knocked unconscious by Yuma's handstand split kick that knocks the other two BCs unconscious, of the very town that Clare visits, and despite Clare wanting to kill him right then and there, he manipulates her into doing exactly what he wanted, to go to Riful's forest castle to either bring back R+L to him, or he knew that Clare would end up Awakening/Releasing the Destroyer, that it was all part of his plan and doing.
that would than correlate to his words to mean: "Yes, you go to Rafaela, and merge with 'her', the Destroyer, and become... something..."
Rubel can't be simply saying that if "they had known each other earlier, they could ahve been friends". Rubel would never say something as trivial as this, there has to be something important, something he's got plotting and scheming behind these words...
Rubel knows the state of Rafaela... so that doesn't bode well, for what Rubel had said to Clare...
The creation of the Destroyer using Rafaela+Luciela was all Rubel's doing, well he wanted whatever the "complete creation" would be, but Rafaela messed it up! Now he wants Clare to "join" with "Rafaela"... or perhaps more the Teresa inside inside of Clare to "join" with "Rafaela"...
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 05, 2011 at 06:45 PM.
I don't think the Manga literally supports your train of thought in this regard but it makes a great deal of sense to me, at least. If we believe that Rubel is an agent of the competing faction that is out destroy this line of research, then the creation of the destroyer makes perfect sense.
We're assuming of course that Rubel would have knowledge of what would arise from the awakening of the Luciella/Raphaela merging. I'm not sure who first coined the term destroyer, but it would do exactly what Rubel had hoped to accomplish. Recall that he seeks to end the line of research by having the research implode on itself. When the dust settles (assuming Destroyer kills everyone), the Destroyer, created by the Organization annihilates all. Organization returns to the island to find complete holocaust and halts the "awakening" project.
Rubel would have accomplished his goal. Just throwing out an idea here.
As I think is known by all, I have a theory that Rubel is the LEADER of the Organization. so, while you may agree, we agree for very different end beliefs, hehe.
but about what I have to support Rubel being responsible for creating the Destroyer (well some of it anyways, as this is only going to be a brief repeat of some of my arguments I've posted in the past) along with my theory about Rubel:
My speculations: The Organization (other BCs) were going to execute Rafaela as the scapegoat for their embarrassing failure and incident with Luciela Awakening, but Rubel negiotates that they instead just banish/exile her, this allows him to secretly meet with her (in the caves in the forest nearby the Org HQs) and give her secret missions unknown to the Organization, away from their eyes and ears.
in the manga: Rubel BLACKMAILS Rafaela, using "information ABOUT her beloved - now Awakened, an AO - older sister Luciela", to do what he wants of her.
I speculate: that Rubel indeed knows Rafaela's true intentions, of NOT killing AO Luciela, but wanting to SAVE (De-Awaken) AO Luciela back to being her older sister again (as a Claymore or maybe a human even).
in the manga: But, Rubel goes about this hint to us, by seeming to instead tease Rafaela about whether she wants to save Luciela or to kill Luciela. Or, that was mis-information to throw off any "eyes and ears" of the Organization spying on him/them at the Org HQs. Rubel also tells us that rank 1 Offensive Type Rafaela CAN Regenerate her damaged/missing eye, and that she has power equal to Luciela.
in the manga: Rafaela doesn't care, she'll do ANYTHING for her beloved Luciela, as that's ALL she cares about, just like Clare with Teresa, Miria with Hilda, Alicia/Beth with Beth/Alicia, and etc. As said, she'll even cut cut her fellow Claymores, as the "Assassin of the Organization (or actually of Rubel)".
my speculation: Rubel orders Rafaela to hunt down and execute deserter Irene (as she has info on the secret Teresa-Priscilla incident, that only Rubel knows about, and wants to keep it that way, and how he had secretly taken Irene to watch Priscilla kill those Yomas, knowing
in the manga: Irene being the "by the book" Claymore that she was, would yield her rank 2 to Priscilla, thus secretly getting Priscilla inserted into the Teresa execution squad without the BCs knowing it).
my speculation: Also, Rubel has Clare unknowingly execute Ophelia for him (and to test and rapidly bring out/increase Clare's power level), as she's another with info he wants to keep secret, this time the info is about Miria being a HA and thus the existence of HAs.
my speculation: He *may* even have sent Irene to save Clare, seeing as she was about to die to Claymore Ophelia... (only to have Rafaela then kill Irene after Irene gave Clare her arm).
my speculation: Rubel intercepts Galatea hearing her lie, or if that BC who was with Alicia spying on the Witches Maw was holding Galatea for her treachery, he negotiates FOR her, saving her life from being executed for lying to them about Clare.
in the manga: anyways, after the Witches Maw, Rubel with Rafaela with him, hunts down and intercepts Clare+Jean, and somehow knows about Raki being captured and taken by the Slave Traders to Alphonse... how the heck would he just happen to know that...
my speculation: frankly Rubel must have captured Raki and sent him off to Alphonse as a "Card/leverage" to force Clare to go to Pieta. Though, he didn't know Clare was already going to Alphonse as she heard Priscilla was up there from Riful, or he wanted to force Clare to Pieta to keep her away from Priscilla... (his secret "accomplice"...)
in the manga: according to Galatea brazenly hinting at this right to Rimuto's face (was she wanting to get executed?, fortunately Rubin shows up just in time and SHUTS HER UP, saving her life again),
it's my speculation (and some actual stuff in the manga about Rafaela+Luciela ending up half-merged) that: unknown to Clare+Jean, Rubel has Rafaela secretly follow them, and spy on the Pieta Battle with Renee. This was the "last" that Rafaela thought Rubel had need of her, as he finally gave her his "information about Luciela". With Rubel's "information on how to SAVE (De-Awaken) AO Luciela", at long last, Rafaela secretly follows Isley+Priscilla+Raki to Mucha, where Isley battles AO Luciela. Rafaela arrives and does what Rubel told her to do. Rafaela crushes Luciela to death, and than performs the "technique" that Rubel "taught" her. The thing is though, what Rafaela thought was a "technique" to SAVE AO Luciela, was actually a "technique" to create an Uber-Awakened, except...
in the manga: Rafaela messes it up, and it stops incompleted, with Rafaela only half-merged with Luciela's corpse, creating "merely" the Destroyer instead, the Destroyer was merely the result of the FAILED+INCOMPLETE "technique" that she was actually doing, unknown to her.
in the manga: Rubel, due to Galatea's brazenness, needs to get Galatea away, as she's going to be executed soon. He shows her to Alicia+Beth, which is the final straw horrorifying her at what they had done to Alicia+Beth making them into life dolls, and so Galatea deserts.
my speculation: But, Rubel had another motive as well, to teach Galatea how the Soul Link works, from watching Alicia+Beth kill those 11 ABs that Isley sent to attack the Org HQs. Which she'd need to complete the "technique" for Rubel later on, or even later on, she'd be needed to finally complete the Uber-Awakened, from the "blob of 3"...
my speuclation: Anyways, Riful, happens to find R+L, before Rubel, so Rubel orders Dietrich to go hunt down Galatea, as he needs her, as she is known by Riful already, and she can complete the "Technique" that Rafaela failed to do for Rubel.
in the manga: However, Tracker Dietrich is unable to catch Galatea.
in the manga: We next see Rubel somehow knowing that Renee has been just captured by Riful, while he was in Lacroa chatting with Clare. How the Heck...., lol.
my speculation on what happens in the manga: anyways, he gets Clare to go to Riful, as she's the other one capable, as he can't get his hands on Galatea. Rubel knows that Clare will hook up with Rafaela and she will teach Clare the Soul Link, which she/Teresa eventually use later to "merge" her with the Destroyer, again, to seal up Priscilla...
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 06, 2011 at 12:06 AM.
When is claymore 114 gonna be released? And also about Hegemons posts, I think when Dae said that someone has taken the information about the arms owner and distorting it and isolating it is key. He says that words like purge and awakening have been mixed around. So the organization probably thinks that Priscilla was either killed while awakening or simply died in combat. Why Rubel lied about this is unclear but could just come down to him being a spy and not wanting the Org. to know about an abyssal level awakened so that they could get their butts kicked by complete surprise. I think it's farfetched to think that Rubel sent clare to Riful and Renee to help seal priscilla with luciela+raphaela. It just comes down to Rubel wanting clare and her friends dead. If the organization knew about clare they would either capture her or offer amnesty for her betrayal and give her a high ranking. Like if the organization knew that Clare killed an awakened #2 like rigaldo by awakening parts of her body, the org. would probably focus 100% of their efforts in getting clare and would probably start making tons of claymores with just 1/4 yoma blood.
Ok, sorry for taking so long to get back at everyone. I figured I needed a break from this discussion.
I'm not sure whether I should be happy or not about the discussion being 'dropped' as suggested by HK. I agree for the most of it - people said what they wanted to say and it would be better to split the discussion up in more managable chunks. We pretty much did three theories at the same time, which wasn't handy. And it was getting annoying.
But how can you say 'everyone said everything they wanted to', and next claim you left things unsaid? If you have the answers or new arguments we asked, you should give them. I understand you're busy, but then why not just say that? - Sorry guys, but I'm too busy right now.-
One thing though; discussions should always be public.
There is just this one little thing I can't resist saying. And no, I'm not trying to be a bully...
Why would Rubel 'steal' Teresa's corpse if Dae was his underling?
And if Rubel is the leader of the organization, doesn't that automatically mean 'the organization' knows about Priscilla, on behalf of their leader knowing?
When even your theories clash, it becomes hard to take any of them seriously.
Anyway, I'm out for now. Sorry, but none of the other theories floating around spark my interest, and I ran into this lovely Nuclear Energy discussion which just begs my attention... .
See you next chapter!
Welcome Kakavodka to the site and specifically this Claymore forum, hehe!
I don't know anything official, but this is my understanding from what others have said:
Claymore may or may not come out later in this month or it'll simply be the next month. It may or may not be 2 chapters long.
mangastream does have an announcement about it, takes a little navigation search though to find it.
so far, the information I've heard is leaning that it'll come out on ~20-30 of this month but only be 1 chapter long. this is only hearsay though
I personally do NOT think Rubel is triyng to eliminate Clare nor the other HAs, as in the most simpliest of explanations, if Rubel had wanted Clare dead, he could have already done so long ago, and at any time as well.
Rubel had something planned in Luatrec (the western land), as he WAS actually NOT pleased when he found out that the Org was immediately sending the AFs+Alicia+Beth to kill Riful, after Isley was gobbled up dead by his pursuing AFs.
He didn't want whatever he had planned in the west, between Clare and "Rafaela" (as he coerced Clare in Lacroa to go to Riful's forest castle with the R+L half-merged bodies), to get messed up...
and here's some of my thoughts and supportive content about/for my theory of Rubel as being the leader of the Organization:
it is a "longshot" theory, I do know (am aware) and agree with this, but I'm holding onto it anyways as it is my own theory and also for fun, until it is finally disproven or if miraculously it comes true, and wow would that be awesome, hehe "He who laughs last, laughs best!" -(I forgot who said this, argh!)
"And if Rubel is the leader of the organization, doesn't that automatically mean 'the organization' knows about Priscilla, on behalf of their leader knowing?" -Nefnora
I need to explain my view of the Organization:
think of the Organization as like a "Lions' Den" or a "Guild of Thieves/Cut-Throats/Assasins".
Each BC, wants to be the Leader, and won't hesitate to stab another BC in the back, if they let their guard down.
it's a free for all, so each BC is going to be hiding their own secrets, and plotting and scheming against each other, all of the BCs are vying for power, and for the leadership position.
And who is the greatest of these scheming plotting political intrigue BCs?
Rubel! He's the ultimate manipulator, coerce'r, he's the puppeteer having the entire island's beings dancing on his strings, he's Jigsaw from the Saw movies, he's got his "fiingers/hands" on everyone and everything that in on the island that that goes on the island. the island is his playground.
and instead of sitting on a throne, as a TRUE LEADER of such a dangerous group, he's out in the field, doing what he's best at, manipulation and control of others.
the "king of thieves" is not going to be sitting on a throne in the guild hall, no he's out there in the field being the "king of thieves" that he is, stealing the hardest to steal treasures!
Same with the Organization, the LEADER of the Organization isn't going to be sitting on a throne at the Org HQs like Rimuto does, no, he's going to be out there "moving everyone around", he's out there orchestrating every event every pawn/being, according to his will and grand plan (whatever that may be, lol).
if you seen Batman Begins movie, Raz al' Ghoul, is the inspirational example for my Rubel theory.
Raz al' Ghoul pretended to be a subordinate of the League of Shadows, but he actually was the leader of the League of Shadows, as it's greatest member at deception or "cloak and daggers"!
Rubel is the greatest at deception within the Organization, and that is why I theorize he's the deceiving Organization's TRUE LEADER, hehe
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 07, 2011 at 07:45 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
I'm not sure if "leader" is the correct term to the position you have assigned to Rubel. On a purely hierarchical level, Rimulto is the officially appointed leader of the Organization.
However, Rubel, through subterfuge and coercion has shaped and directed the Orgnization's actions. I'm not sure if you guys have ever played a game called Deus Ex - The Conspiracy, but in the game, a secretive society called Illuminati, through indirect means, controls governments. Although, nations have appointed officials, it is the Illuminati that has directed the world's financial, political and social direction.
Correct me if I'm wrong HK, but that's the role you have given Rubel. In essence, Rimulto is the puppet and Rubel is the puppet master.
Last edited by wickedsmile; April 09, 2011 at 01:53 PM.
Chapter 114 will be released on the 21/04/2011 in the JSQ
Moderator message by: HegemonKhanI'm allowing this to stay, as it seems to be an accurate answer to many of your questions about when the next release will be.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 09, 2011 at 08:42 PM.
Miria should be dead...is this turning into a manga where the mangaka is afraid to kill characters because of fans, editors, etc?
I've always liked Claymore but I'd hate to see it become just another shonen...
HelloOriginally Posted by HegemonKhan
I was busy, and it took Me a while to gather all necessary sources to answer for this question, You asked HegemonKhan.
First of: dimension of claymore sword: Total length (approximately) 140 cm (4,59 ft.) to 150 cm (4,92 ft.) (I took it to height of Clare, Teresa and Miria, thus manga is not scalable at all :/ ) Length of blade: 120 cm (3,94 ft.) to 130 cm (4,27 ft.) Width about 15 cm (5,91 inches) to 22 cm (8,66 inches) Why? As above. So dimensions are quite similar to real historic equivalent. Weight: as I wrote, maybe somewhere between 10 kg (22.05 pounds) to 15 kg (33.07 pounds). And All claymores are identical in shape and dimensions, thus the only difference is owner mark.
In Medieval the best ever kind of steel was Damascus Steel. More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel This steel should be enough to made swords with required parameters of durability and flexibility joined with swiftness and sharpness. 2nd kind of the best steel in Medieval era is Japan one used to produce Katana Swords. More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_sword For today there is only Japan steel present. From that steel also should be possible to made swords with above parameters. But time of production, limitation of materials, and price of that weapons made from Damascus Steel or Japan Katana Steel will caused problems to mass production. And in single production there is almost impossible to made so many identical swords. And as We know Org treads claymores as even expendable things, so or They have extremely complex steel-works facilities on mainland, or use something else, because when time needed to create average quality Katana sword is about one year, They will not treated it like spare things.
Plus: the best way to explain Medieval concepts in manga. Minus: not for mass production, extremely hard to make so many identical copies and Org attitude to treat it like spare thing.
Today: the best way to produce those kind of sword is to use Carbon Steel, for more info I recommended to read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_steel and this: http://www.realarmorofgod.com/sword-materials.html thus this one last is awesome for peoples who knows something about metallurgy and chemistry of metals From that kind of steel there is no problem to made swords with needed parameters in mass production due high pressure forming.
But this required steel-works that was achieved due improvements of older methods and initiate new one in the beginning of XX century to get proper steel for made that kind of swords, so or on the mainland they have industry from our XX century, or they use something else.
Other todays materials, like polycarbonates, kevlar, composites of tungsten with titanium could be also useful, but as above it is an contradiction to Medieval concept of manga.
Plus: in XX century there is no problem with massive production on very large scale. Minus: manga should be in Medieval era, not in XX century.
Third, fantasy option: I am chemist, especially biochemist, so I look over about organic tissue which should have required parameters as steel. I know how it is sounds like, but I can assume, that Keratin have required parameters. (Of course at the appropriate scale !) More info here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keratin I will not wrote here an elaborate about it, it is not My intention, but:
We saw Dauf, His skin (also made from keratin, He was human and human skin is also made from it, so I rather doubt that He changed in awakened form whole His biochemical structure, but He just strengthening it) was so strong that was able to resist almost all kind of attack made with claymore swords. Almost all. Reptiles scales are made from keratin which have a very good flexibility, strength, resistance to chemical and physical conditions. And as We know Dragons are reptiles.
So I can only suggests, that claymores are made from Dragons Scales mounted in metal two-handed grip. From bodies of defeated enemies in Global War. Almost all pieces match to this hypothesis. Identical shape of all swords, required parameters, treatment as spare thing, which is easily obtained, there is no Dragons on island and even it is somehow merged into Medieval concept of manga
But it is pure theory, and I will not give My nails and hairs (also made from keratin) for that
Have a nice day
what about this fantasy aspect (which I forget to mention in my previous post):
could the claymore swords, be from melted or crystalized Awakeneds' bodies?
such as in Final Fantasy 6 Japan (or in U.S.; it's FF3), with the esper organisms being turned into crystalline-like material that can be a weapon/sword
or FF7 with mana energy, in fountain-crystalized form
or maybe when the Awakened/Yoma (or heck maybe Claymores' too, lol) body, "decomposes" it transforms into a claymore sword.
or again, it could be a fantasy metal/mineral/material such as like or akin to:
mithril or adamantium
also, an interesting thing that's slightly relevant to this, but it's more its own topic as well, but meh:
If you look at Clare's Partial Awakening, her right side, Irene's arm's side, it looks diamond or even cellulose (plant/leaf) like, versus her left side, Clare's arm's own side, which looks like (demon's) flesh or fleshy muscle.
Katea (who Dauf smashed to pieces in the Witches Maw), had an interesting body too, almost computer cord-cable like, as well
and let's not forget the BLADES of the AFs, Partially Awakened Clare, Alicia, Beth, and etc...
(some) Awakeneds' bodies *DO* have organic BLADES, which thus could be the source material for the claymore swords.
and, Awakeneds/Yoma is also a means of "mass-production", so this is addressed as well.
I personally lean towards the claymore swords being organic, as we haven't seen any forges nor smitheries (nor horse stables nor any type of craft shop, lol), with the sole exception of the mine just outside of Doga town (Raki's home town) as mentioned in ch 1, lol.
it is unfortunately, all pure speculation, but it's fun to see what ideas people have on it, some kind of metal/mineral/material or if its organic from the Yoma/Awakened/Dragon.
as, there's so many unanswered questions about the claymore swords, hehe.
though ch 113 finally shows us a glimpse into their technology of how the BCs do at least one aspect of "creation", and it is very advanced to the humans society on the island, lol.
so, if they can do "this" with Yoma biology, they certainly would have the knowledge of metalurgy, one would think, lol.
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 11, 2011 at 05:55 PM.
Almost everyone says FF 7 is the best/favourite FF game, even people who haven't played it -___-
I've read every chapter of Claymore but because I hardly ever discuss it with people so I don't remember every little detail, was it mentioned in the manga that the swords were indestructible?
Honestly, at the moment I'm mostly interested the former number 1 corpses and when is Clare going to return to the manga...kinda like when the hero from Gantz was gone for so long
indeed, FF6, is awesome, hehe.
*BUT*, this is *NOT* the thread, nor forum, to discuss about this, lol. There is a gaming forum on this site (or you can pm me, and we can talk RPGs/FF games, lol), if you need help finding it let me know, and I'll gladly help you... actually...
... here's the link to the gaming forum on this site:
I ONLY brought up FF6 and FF7 due to their use of mithril, esper crystalization, and mana crystalization in relation to the Claymore content topic of what could the claymore swords' be made out of and how they're made.
the Claymores' claymore swords are indeed unique, in that they are indeed INDESTRUCTABLE, as they have NEVER broken, nor even a chip/dent in them, ever!
(the ONLY time a claymore sword has broken was "Rafaela's" in that "illusion-mind-dream world" by Clare releasing her yoki and using her Quick Sword)
Miria theorizes that:
such a sword is certainly NOT needed for killing NYs, as normal weapons do just fine, albiet they can be broken as well by the NY.
so, thus Miria theorizes that the claymore sword is actually not for killing mere NYs, but rather the Awakeneds instead... and then she goes on theorizing about the continent... which I have no idea how she does so... is Miria merely repeating what Rubel had told her or did she find it hidden in the Organization's archives or where ever they keep their records... as how can she say anything about another land, when no one on the island has ever found any other land...
there's another material that is even more INDESTRUCTABLE than the claymore swords:
Clare's cranium (skull) and to a slightly lesser extent, the rest of her body as well !!!!!!
I really want to at some point go through the entire manga and count how many times Clare's face/head has smashed or been smashed against stuff, hehe
Hard-Headed Clare is both figuritive (she's stubborn) and LITERAL (she HAS AN EXTREMELY HARD HEAD!)
-that's why Clare didn't care when Dauf had her head pinched between his fingers, as poor Dauf secretly realized couldn't crush Clare's head, hehe Galatea's help wasn't actually needed, hehe -
Clare's ultimate technique that can kill Priscilla in a single hit: HEADBUTT !!!!!!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; April 11, 2011 at 06:21 PM.
And yeah, Clare having a tough head is kinda a given...she's a shonen main character (Goku, Yusuke, Luffy etc) lol
On another note, there are now several new characters. Too many I think, another slaughter is due I think. Like back in the the invasion of Pieta. I wonder who's goina get kocked off hmm... Lets see the list.
I also like to point out another consistancy in Claymore is the idea that "heroes does not die in vain". Another claymore always avange the fallen or pick up and carry on task where the dead has left off.
Oh and hi! I'm new to this forum but I been reading the Claymore thread for a while now.