It's come to my attention that every time Pein is mentioned in a thread it turns into a "such and such loses in 2 seconds, dur hur hur" thread, without acknowledgement of the opponent's base skills compared to Pein's base skills.
Now, if we took into consideration such comparisons without focusing on the 6 bodies aspect, then we can look at the 6 bodies aspect more objectively as we'll actually know how each one could potentially fall to Sasuke.
Anyway, this fight consists of each of the 6 Realms vs. Sasuke. INDIVIDUALLY. So that's 6 different fights. This is intentional, because once we see how difficult a time each realm would have with Sasuke alone, it will be easier to debate who would win if all bodies were together without wrongly assuming that Sasuke is incapable of taking down a single one.
And before assuming I'm just doing this to handicap Pein for Sasuke's sake, remember that Sasuke's had his share of handicap matches in here (no MS, outnumbered, pre-skip, removing certain jutsu, giving enemies prep-time, you name it). Pein should be no different.
Hungry Ghost Realm
Every fight takes place where Naruto fought Pein (the ruined Konoha crater).
Your arguement is basicly the same as:
Sasuke vs Ninja alliance Army:
Well if we look at each member of the Alliance individually, we can asume that he could probably beat most of them.
So with this in mind its logical to say, that he would beat all the alliance at once.
See what I did there? That just does not make sense to do this.
The entire point of Pain's 6 realms is that there are six individual bodies, each possessing special techniques that combined make him near invincible. Separately none of them (minus God) are that great, as the fight with Jiraiya more or less showcased, but the point is them all being linked by the Rin'negan. Sorry, but there is pretty much no way you can determine how Sasuke would fair against them together by waging them separately because it is an entirely different situation.
Its like saying Sasuke vs the Seven Swordsmen, individually, to determine how he'd do against the entire group. Doesn't work.
To be fair to the thread, Sasuke beats all easily minus the summoning one who he'd beat after time and might beat God.
Edit: err, looks like Dekker beat me to it.
Yes you can. By knowing how easily he can defeat one body, we can guage just how easily he would manage to forgo ONE body to get to another body to finish it off. Or even how he would react to being outnumbered.
An example? Let's say someone has it in there mind that Sasuke's incapable of beating Pein because he can't get to Hell Realm to prevent the other bodies from being revived. Say, he tries to kill him with Chidori, but Hungry Ghost jumps in the way.
At that point in the discussion, you would need to know just how Sasuke would finish off Hungry Ghost to prevent this from happening. And unless you start accepting the scenarios where this could happen, then we'll continue to get one liner nonsense like "Sasuke loses in 2 seconds".
In otherwords, post on topic please.
Originally Posted by Dekker
It makes perfect sense. If you know what strategies work on ONE person, you know what steps Sasuke has to take to make sure he can pull off said strategy when fighting that one person, along with others. If Raiton beats Doton, and Sasuke is fighting 5 people (one with Doton), all with different elements, it doesn't change the fact that his Raiton will still beat that one person's Doton. Get it? You don't elminate weaknesses by outnumbering someone, you simply make it harder for them to capitalize on those weaknesses.
The weaknesses remain. It's just people are dead set on not proving their claims for whatever reason. This thread will force them to.
Last edited by ninjabot; February 08, 2011 at 06:55 PM.
Yes, that would work, if Pain sat there and let Sasuke attack each body individually without retaliating whatsoever. Example: Sasuke attacks Hungry Ghost, God realm Bansho Tenins, Animal realm sucks out his soul.
Sasuke attacks Hell realm, summon path keeps him busy while God realm and the others swoop in.
I don't even hate Sasuke or think he is incapable of fighting some of the top ninja, but your logic that him attacking each realm individually without acknowledging any counterattack by the other paths whatsoever if very flawed. He may be able to beat Pain using EMS and getting very lucky with some help, but without actually seeing them fight I have to give this to Pain easily. sorry.
No one said that Pein wouldn't attempt to stop Sasuke via overwhelming him with other bodies in a normal fight. What I said in both posts was that the ease of how each body can be killed in a one on one fight directly reflects how easily they could be destroyed as a collective. Yes it will be harder, but if one Realm can be murdered in one blow, then having other bodies to protect it only allows that body to postpone how long it takes for that one blow to be delivered.
Actually, I think you're confused. See, in these arena fights, we're allowed to define the stipulations of the match. That includes handicaps. You can't just say "Pein won't fight like that" and leave. Look at the 7 swordsman of the mist thread. No one said "You can't give the 7 swordsmen immortality, that's not fair!" We simply followed the rules set by the thread creator.
Simply saying "Pein wins because despite you setting the thread up as one-on-one fights, I'm gonna let them all fight Sasuke at the same time." is counterproductive and doesn't disprove the point I'm trying to make. If you're not gonna stay on topic and follows the rules of the thread, why reply in the first place?
Actually, I think you're confused. See, I already said that I agree that Sasuke would obliterate all the realms individually minus God. My argument was that you cannot gauge how Sasuke would do against them individually as a measure for how he'd do against them as a group, because it is entirely different. 6 on 1 are immeasurably different odds, even if some paths are fodder. If we're talking about Sasuke taking out the weakest paths first (along with Hell path), he could kill some in one shot hits. Yes, as is the protocol with Chidori. Would he get absolutely slaughtered by the other paths while doing this? Mhm. Yes, I think Sasuke would lose against the entire group. Yes, I think almost everyone in the entire Naruto universe would lose against the entire group. But I just can't really comprehend the logic that fighting them individually would mean anything in comparison to them as a group.
Sorry for sounding so absurdly angry, I don't really know why I seem it because I'm not even haha, just argumentative.
So if its one vs. one against each body I will just follow the logic of every other Sasuke thread:
Human Realm = Amaterasu
Asura Realm = Amaterasu
Animal Realm = Amaterasu
Hell Realm = Amaterasu
God Realm = Amaterasu
Hungry Ghost Realm = Tsukuyomi
Doesn't matter though because he can't beat them all at once. Even if we assume he has enough chakra and he won't go blind because of EMS, he would simply die of blood loss from his eyes.
Actually I don't even think he could beat two of them at once... Banshou Tenin and a missile into his gut while he's flying helplessly would solve this.
Originally Posted by LnDRash
That's an excellent point, thanks for that. But let me get this straight: you don't think that Sasuke could take both Asura Realm and Hell Realm at the same time? Or maybe Human Realm and Hungry Ghost Realm at the same time? Even with what we've seen of his feats? His superior speed?
See, this is what I'm trying to fix. You're acknowledging Sasuke's ability above each realm... until you take into consideration the fact that he's outnumbered. Then you forget that Sasuke's still superior to each individual realm save for God Realm.
Originally Posted by PropaneTankHank
It's different, but not completely irrelevent. Infact, you have a far better understanding about what could go down if he fought multiple bodies, hence the point of this thread. The victory isn't determined simply by counting numbers and giving the victory to the more manned side. Look at the "Sasuke vs. Rookie 9" thread. We know that he would defeat them all at once based on his scaling relative to each individual ninja. AFTER you know his effectiveness against each ninja, you determine how the other team can overcome their weaknesses with their greater numbers.
By looking at Sasuke's potential standing against Hell Realm alone, then Hungry Ghost alone, we can more easily speculate what would happen if Sasuke fought both Asura Realm, and Ghost Realm. Then add another realm. Then add another. And another. I'm not (nor have I ever) said Sasuke would defeat all Realms at once. I simply want everyone to see how easy it is to tell that, while fighting all the realms, he WILL kill several before keeling over. And the fact that I actually take the time to mark up strategem or hunt down manga facts to prove it isn't being taken into account.
I'm giving you guys the chance to say "No, Sasuke can't do that to this realm because..." and then post mangascans that support their claims.
It doesn't matter in my eyes if he's superior to each individual realm, he has no way of spliting them and they will defend each other, without even a blind spot. They may be weak indivually but they are not that weak... and if all of them are there they defend each other and their abilities just complement each other flawlessly.
Pain wasn't even trying to kill Naruto, he just wanted to capture him. If he was going for the kill and had God Realms abilities available right from the start Naruto would have been obliterated in a few seconds... and that doesn't even take into account all the exhaustion he had from the fights before while raiding Konoha. All six realms firing at you at once is just a pure overkill for pretty much anybody, especially if you don't even know Pains secret.
Maybe we both have a bit biased views because if I remember right you thought Sasuke could beat all Seven Swordsmen at once while I was saying no chance in hell, even without immortality, just because he's so much outnumbered. I don't have anything against Sasuke or any other character, actually I'am even starting to like him recently, but if there is a difference in numbers as large as heaven and hell then I'am having a lot of trouble imagining anyone doing a lot. Provided the difference in power isn't extremely high like some nameless fodders for example.
Sasuke defeating all Seven Swordsmen and Pain is very reasonable given that he has Sussano and Ameratsu. Those two jutsu alone, and the amount of chakra Sasuke has have made him stronger than 99% of all ninja in the manga, and give him a great chance of beating everyone else.
Looking past that Sasuke easily defeats all the Pain bodies given those two jutsu, and he can just run up and decapitate Hungry Ghost Realm with a sword swipe.
Lets be real. Pain is only as good as Deva Pain is. Other than having a unique ability, one of the other bodies are all that exceptional, especially by themselves. Asura Pain can offer some challenge until Sasuke breaks out the MS techs. Then he's toast. Everybody else would pretty much die from a single sword swipe. Deva Pain does have a slight edge over Sasuke though. But only if he has access to Chibaku Tensei.
I don't want to start a discusion about the swordsmen here, I only brought them up as an example because I think numbers matter a lot. Btw. "craptastic" Zabuza would have killed Kakashi if he wasn't forced to release his water prison by Sasuke and Naruto. His Data Book stats aren't bad either so only because Kakashi managed to kill him on the second and thierd time they fought doesn't mean he's crap.
That's a bold claim, considering you've already admitted he trumps each individual body except God Realm. But you're still missing the point that if he is indeed superior than one, why he'd have such terrible trouble making it past that one to get to another. It's like saying that Sasuke can't make it past Shikamaru to kill Chouji or Ino. The fact that he's so far and away superior to them all makes any advantage they gain from outnumbering him neglegable.
Jiraiya seperated realms after understanding their powers. Are you saying Sasuke can't fire a Goukakyuu at Hungry Ghost and bumrush another realm with a Chidori while the Katon is being absorbed? You know he's faster than each realm so this shouldn't suprise you and yet... here we are.
Originally Posted by LnDRash
Agreed. But not everybody has Sasuke's skillset. Just like not everyone has Naruto's. Pein can be fooled. He can be outran. He can be confused. Even with all of the handicaps Naruto had, Pein was being duped throughout the manga by cunning ninja. Confused by bunshin what like... 3 times? Stopped by Genjutsu, falling into traps... it just so happened he could revive his bodies, that's all that made up for his continuous fuck-ups. And that's all I'm saying here. The combination of Sasuke being better than each individual body means he'll find a way to cut down a few before keeling over from chakra exhaustion. And I wanted everyone to post just how badly he would defeat each individual body so you'd understand how believably he can trounce through Pein's realms before time runs out.
Originally Posted by LnDRash
Yeah, he'd beat the 7 swordsman alright. I also agreed he'd beat the whole Rookie 9 minus Naruto, but I backed up both by explaining Sasuke's advantage over each individual ninja, and explained how him being outnumbered doesn't change their chances much. That's why I want people to see just how beneath Sasuke each realm is, or else we're gonna keep getting crap like "Pein's on a whole 'nother level" or "Pein stomps" or "Pein wins in 2 seconds". He'd lose against Pein with all his bodies with him and his secret, of course. But only after making him look like a fool by offing multiple bodies. You can't have read the manga and be made to believe otherwise.
I agree that he would take out some bodies before he goes down, I'll give him that much credit.
The problem I see if he's that much outnumbered is that even with his large chakra supply he will run himself dry sooner or later. I can imagine that he takes out something like three bodies, with a lot of trouble of course, only for them to be revived... and thats basically the point where I think he's fucked because he just can't take that into account if he doesn't know about it, wasting may too much chakra and stamina by going all out on Pain to even get to this point.
And btw. don't get me started on Choji again... I'am totally sure Shikamaru could come up with an tactic how to get Sasuke into Chojis mouth!
Last edited by LnDRash; February 09, 2011 at 02:15 AM.