I am with Goral here. There's a reason why no Claymore wanted to mess with Flora when she called it out in Pieta. Miria only rise up to her rank because her Phantom was a set up attack or a last resort.
With the new Phantom, her speed has gone down but just enough to get out of danger. She can use it more often then usual, but I doubt it will do any effect on WC.
Remember Flora WC does not only attack front, but it attack all around her. Just look at the ground where all the snow flew off in the Pieta chapter.
So even if Miria jumps behind Clare to attack, it will get deflected or Miria will get slice. Probably the reason why Miria stood down when fighting Clare after the 7year.
1. Destroyer(Rafaela +Luciela)-this thing proudly opens my top 10
2.Priscilla- before getting swollen by destroyer she was just way too overpowering
3.Clair- I believe she will amaze us very soon when she gets out of destroyer...You know as dull as her character might appear to someone, she carries in her flash and memories of some seriosuly epic warriors( Rafaela, Irene,Tereza.Found it amusing how actually teresa and rafaela met before)
4. Miria- extremely strong warrior. When people say oh well she is only good in groups, but then how about her cutting down all single digits except 1,2,4 and number 10.And not kill any of them i just find it extremely epic.
5.Miata,Audrey( i believe their power levels is around the same). Dunno guys I have high hopes for Miata. I mean she is still very small and her skills are Miria levl already.
6.Galatea,Renee( i find renee as the weaker version of galatea, but i believe they are not too far away in power lvls). Havent seen Galatea using her yoki control thingy that she was doing during the fight with Daff, is that cause she is blind?
7.Deneve,Rachel( cant say that I am impressed by these two.Well I dont hate either kinda neutral. But with Deneve I feel like every time she starts fighting she is like reaching her limits really quickly, and she gets hit around by enemies so much, not sure how she got her rank of 11 back then)
8.Winged Anastacia( pretty good, nothing special though)
9.Tabatha,Cynthia,Helen,Uma(not sure if spelled it right, well the one who likes to throw her sword) All I can say is these girls need some more training
10Clarice( mystery to me. Clair number 2..Is she special just like Clair or just a fail Warrior? hmmmmmmm)
Last edited by Goral; May 11, 2011 at 04:02 AM.
I think you guys misunderstand the reason for the melee that ensued between Clare and Miria. Not many have noticed but this is a retake of an event that previously occurred in the Slasher's Arc. Miria tested Clare to ascertain her fighting potential. At that time, Miria disarmed her easily, which garnered severe admonishment from Helen and from Denve, in particular.
Miria backed off as Clare used the wind-cutter because Clare had demonstrated sufficient fighting ability. Miria knows that Clare has locked away the Quick-sword technique and could always rely on it, if called upon. Our protagonist demonstrated to her elder/captain that she could easily handle the worst situations.
To say that Clare would defeat Miria because she has several deadly techniques is premature and ignores the overall potential and ability of the warrior. By that reasoning, Irene should have lopped off Awakened Priscilla's head. I'm certain a bit of my bias toward Miria sways my thoughts, but a true fight between Clare and Miria would end in a draw, IMHO.
I found something VERY interesting. Here.
Is Dietrich really saying, while they are in a group, her power is equal to the AEs? That's ridiculous! Isley couldn't even take them, and she had trouble facing a normal awakened with the help of three other warriors! Even if she's saying she's only equal to one's strength, that's still very impressive. If this turns out to be true, she moves up my book to tie with Audrey.
And I think people are seriously underestimating Miria's New Mirage (and the Phantom Mirage for that mater). Aside from Awakened Beings, Miria's speed has gone completely and utterly uncontested as the fastest in her generation and in this one. Phantom Mirage reached nearly impossible speeds for a Claymore, and yes New Mirage is slower, but not by much. And now she can use that unlimitedly. As for dealing with QS, I don't think its as fast as her New Mirage. When she uses her full-speed, we've yet to see even a blur the same cannot be said for Clare's QS (WS I'm not too sure but, at most IMO, it's as fast as her Mirage). And one more incredibly important thing people are also forgetting, Miria has still yet to release her Yoki. Clare has and, IIRC, has used QS and/or WS during that time period and the speed didn't seem to be perceptibly greater than that of NM. And finally (but most importantly), no one has ever said Miria can't use her Phantom Mirage, she just chooses not too because it's consumes a considerable amount of Yoki and as such would require her to release her Yoki. Were Miria to use her Phantom Mirage with her new, much improved base speed, I have no doubt that she'd be able to escape from QS and WS, if not take Clare out in that split-second of her boost in speed (though her timing would have to be impeccable to accomplish the latter).
Last edited by White Silver King; May 05, 2011 at 07:07 PM.
Where did you read that Clare had the wind-cutter boosted by Youki release? Is this in the Cognates of Paradise arc? I understand that your reasoning just fine in regards to Miria backing down from the wind cutter. Correct me if I'm wrong in my assessment. You believe that since she backed down from the Wind-cutter, Miria yielded to the stronger warrior. Hence Clare would win any confrontation with Miria, since the former did not, as of yet, use the strongest arsenal at her disposal.
Where we differ in this, and perhaps I should not have drawn "draw" as a conclusion (I did say my bias may sway me here), is that the melee was not a fight to achieve victory. It was a test to determine sufficient ability to survive the dangers south of Alfonse. In the previous test, Miria disarmed Clare. In this test, Miria backed off. You see Miria yielding as her defeat, where I see only a skill assessment test. Does that make sense?
aight... Miria vs Clare, hehe:
First, I need to let it be known, I am on Goral's side in my opinion in this match up.
now, let me give my opinion on this, some might be redundant, as much as already been discussed, lol.
I'm not personally impressed with Miria, **ONLY** because Yagi has not shown anything impressive about her!. I want to like Miria and to think that she's as awesome as is Clare, but all Yagi has given me is Miria's Phantom Step and Mirage Step! ARGH!!!!
I want to see something else that supports Miria being a step above Deneve+Helen, but Yagi has given nothing! Like show how fkn strong Miria is, show her offensive might! Okay, ya she was able to cut the "spiderman" male AB, whereas Clare could not cut its neck at the time, but both Clare and Miria were cutting it up in its death, and we don't know (I don't think, and am too lazy to look up anyways) who had managed to cut its neck (presumably if its neck was cut, it'd have to be Miria), and let's not forget that Helen+Deneve was able to cut its arms off with ease too.
Ya, Yagi/manga provides all this supposed/hype of it being Miria+Clare as the top of the Ghosts and of the HAs, but I need support, and Yagi hasn't given it, argh!
the past Clare+Miria comparisons are important to current Clare+Miria comparisons, they can't be written off. Since we don't see too much difference in amounts (proportional amounts) of improvements between any of the warriors, it's safe to assume they're improving (proportionally) equally.
Ya, Clare has had the most visable uber high improvement rate over the course of the entire manga, but let's look at Deneve, with her fkn outrunning (being fast enough that Priscilla couldn't catch up with her immediately) fkn Priscilla, taking on Isley and the AFs, saving Clare from Priscilla (her leadership/strategy/plan/tactics "on her feet"/during the battle), her fkn stopping that AB with her outstretched arm, and etc... So, I don't think we can actually say that Clare is the only one who is uber improving... Helen as well, and let's not forget Yuma... Or, Galatea... matching up with rank 1 (albiet an immature) Miata (though she couldn't take on Agatha ??? ... doesn't make sense... unless maybe we assume an Awakened rank 2 is quite powerful... and actually that kinda makes sense... too, hehe).
So, since they are ALL having quite a rapid improvement..., it's reasonable to thus assume they're improving equally, so if Clare was superior to Miria in the past, than Clare is going to remain superior to Miria currently.
While it's best to compare them currently obviously, -unfortunately- , we just don't have much to use for currently between Miria and Clare in a match up against each other, so we have to look to the past as well.
alright, finally, here's my own opinionated assessment of
Clare vs Miria
Partially Awakened Clare (to me) is obviously "hands down" superior to Miria.
Unfortunately, we've yet to see Miria's Partial Awakening... (and Deneve's and Helen's...) ARGH!!!
so, let's compare Claymore/HA Clare vs Claymore/HA Miria
their 2nd spar match (a.k.a., a comparison of current Miria+Clare):
probably both were holding back, as well as their Yoki Release (YR) obviously, as it was just a spar match, they weren't trying to kill each other in a death match, lol.
why did Miria challenge Clare to it?
Miria probably merely wanted to see/test how much Clare (and maybe indirectly-representationally all of the Ghosts through sparing with Clare, if they are/were ALL ready to leave and take on the Org and whatever awaits them, now 7 years later, from the rest of the island as they've been cooped up in Alphonse not knowing hardly anything that has had been happening) has improved herself over the 7 years.
And, Miria probably wanted to see/test how far she herself has improved... if she can match Clare, than she can probably match any other opponent as well, as remember (as Goral pointed out detailedly-thoroughly), Miria herself sees Clare as her superior, as Clare did kill Rigardo and saved herself from getting decapitated by Rigardo (albiet this is Partially Awakened Clare we're talking about, lol).
anyways... we have the spar match and guess what?
it seems that Clare's WC = Miria's MS
While Clare can move her arm fast to move her sword fast, Miria, through her legs, does the same. Instead of moving her arm to move her sword, Miria moves her legs (her MS-Mirage Step or her PS-Phantom Step) to produce at least the same effect, a fast "sword swing".
in other words,
the speed of Clare's sword swing via her WC = the speed of Miria's sword swing via her MS
So they are equal in sword swing speed (attack quickness = AQ) at NO YR, Clare's AQ with WC = Miria's AQ with MS
unfortunately, we don't know how they compare at/with YR, we don't know how the QS compares with the PS. So, I personally, consider them to be equal, as the WC and MS are equal.
also, determining speed is nearly impossible now:
Deneve+Helen vs Priscilla vs Isley+Riful+Alicia+Beth+AFs
Miria's PS vs the TATs (Trainee Awakening Twins)
Priscilla displayed uber speed upon Riful (Riful couldn't even blink, as Priscilla traveled whatever the distance from Alicia+Beth battle to being behind Riful at her location) and against poor Alicia (poor Alicia didn't even know she was already dead, Priscilla moved so fast, traversing the distance between them and b....h-slap-smack decapitating Awakened Alicia, while Alicia still hadn't released her head was severed from her neck and dead, lol).
Yet.... fkn Helen+Deneve were able to fkn run fast enough that Priscilla couldn't catch them before they reached the Destroyer, and Priscilla WAS trying to, as Priscilla was peeved off that her "prey" was kept being kept from her!
So, is fkn Deneve+Helen now more fast than Miria is with her PS ???
Also, Miria's PS (and she WAS using it in the latter part of her battle against the TATs) is very fast, though not fast enough to exceed the speed at which the TATs could switch their Awakenings, hehe.
so, we really can't compare speeds anymore... there's no way to make any real sense of actual speeds anymore between characters... in my opinion anyways...
as let me try to show in a quick display
(past): Isley > Rigardo > PS Miria
(past): Partially Awakened Clare > Rigardo > PS Miria
(present): TATs' Awakening Switching ~/= (just slightly > ) PS Miria
(present, and let's assume): TATs = Alicia+Beth
(present): AFs' speed = Alicia+Beth 's speed
(present): AFs' speed > Helen's speed
(present): Priscilla's speed > Riful+Alicia+Beth
(present): Despite Priscilla's speed, Deneve+Helen(while carrying Clare) were able to get to the Destroyer, Priscilla could NOT catch up to them in time. (Priscilla is of course-presumingly-lol faster than they are)
(ach, I'm getting way too tired... meh... I can give more of my thoughts on Clare vs Miria, if you guys/girls are interested in my opinion of a match up between them)
here's my own quick assessment:
on the surface, Clare and Miria seem as equals, however, I feel Clare truly surpasses Miria now, as she did as well in the past (albiet Clare was "immature"/inexperienced similar to how rank 1 Miata is seen now). And I'm not even addressing Clare's Partial Awakening (and we haven't seen Miria's PA either... anyways, hehe).
Last edited by HegemonKhan; May 06, 2011 at 07:36 PM.
Well first I like to say I like both Clare and Miria about equally but they are not my favorate characters to state my motive.
I think currently Clare and Miria is very close in power. If they both were to fight I think there is no sure winner. One of them will be dead and the other gravely wounded or both kills each other would be my guess.
I also think out of all the characters Clare have the fastest power up. At some point she will become more powerful then Miria even if she isn't currently. Maybe when she get out of that Destroyer blob?
Lets do this, improvements we seen.
Strength - No increase I know of, I haven't seen her ripping peoples head off or kicking them across the street like Teresa yet.
Speed - Seems to gotten faster, she can escape Riful now.
Yoki pool - Increased
Techniques - Yoki Sensing, Quicksword, Windcutter
Combat experience - Increased from various fights and well documented.
Strength - No increase I know of ether, but I think she's a bit stronger then Clare because she can knock her down even though Clare was blocking with her sword. Miria would never be able to knock somone like Teresa down with the force of her blow, just because Teresa can basicly one arm parry it.
Speed - I think she gotten faster
Yoki pool - Increased as well
Techniques - Improved phantom
Combat experience - Increased from various fights but we know little about them.
My conclusion is, it boils down to Strength and Techniques.
Miria win in strength test but techniques are more complicated. First I think Windcutter is inferior to Phantom, because if WC were better, Flora would be higher rank then Miria instead. Yoki sensing is tricky because I'm not certain if phantom releases yoki. It seems like it doesn't because the ghosts were on 'the pill" when Clare and Miria spar the second time. Quicksword vs Phantom is tricky also. We know QS is always at its full release form but I don't know if phantom can power up with more yoki.
Last edited by Khorr; May 06, 2011 at 08:06 PM.
In terms of power as Claymore Warriors not fully awakened I'd like to think..
01 ~ Teresa
02 ~ Claymore Priscilla *(novice)
03 ~ Hysteria, Lutecia*, Sistina*, Roxanne*
04 ~ Alicia+Beth (as a team but lower as individuals), Licht*, Cloe*
05 ~ Cassandra, Claymore Isley*, Claymore Riful*, Claymore Luciela+Rafaela* (team) Ghost Claire & Ghost Miria
06 ~ Miata* (not at full potential but focused) & Rosemary (maybe an average no.1)*
07 ~ Blind Galatea, Irene, Claymore Regardo*, Claymore Agatha* & Rafaela (after Luciela's Awakening)
08 ~ Ghost Deneve, Ghost Helen & Claymore Dauf*
09 ~ Audrey, Ophelia & Sophia
10 ~ Noel, Rachel & Ghost Cynthia
(Ghost Tabitha would probably be equal in power to an ordinary Rank 7 warrior & Ghost Yuma a ordinary Rank 9 warrior)
I only listed the known Rank 1 - 5 warriors & the Ghost Warriors.. as of Claymore Chapter 120
I didn't list Anastacia and other lower ranking warriors like Flora because my head hurts now after trying to put up this list. it's a pain trying to remember every little detail and imagining the range of each of their potential power..
Last edited by Ravenstar; November 15, 2011 at 04:39 AM.
Lets assume that, aside these 7 fantastic girls, the new-generation ranked 1-10's all have low to medium striking power except for rachel, who at best has to charge up her attack from low to medium to hard to very hard and so on.
#1 Miria - Leadership skills, Can move fast, Can think fast, Hard striking power
#2 Clare - Wild animal at times, but calm and collected otherwise, PYSA, Flashsword, Windcutter, although quite moody at times, VERY HARD striking power
#3 Helen - Drill sword, body contortion, but easily provoked, VERY VERY HARD striking power
#4 Deneve - Powerful (almost instant throughout her entire body ) regenration, Dual sword style, Hard striking power
#5 Tabitha - Basically a noob version of galatea, Can sense youki from a VERY wide range, medium striking power. Although she follows miria around like a lost puppy, she's still very capable.
#6 Cynthia - Medic, Medium striking power, (Youki Synch ability, Capable of pulling people back from awakening) (Became much stronger after Veronica died in front of her)
#7 Yuma - Medic, Medium striking power, (Beginner youki synch abilities, Can accurately throw projectiles with deadly accuracy) (Doesn't have enough courage / self esteem, but the gap in power from before pieta ; fastforward to Vol.21+ version yuma is such an increase in power it seems, that I believe she's improved the most out of everyone, she went from being a lowly number, to being able to take down x2 single digit numbers simultaneously)
Now, notice how in my opinion, all these ladies have from medium to very very hard striking power ; compare that to the new generation.....hell even yuma, tabitha & cynthia, those 3 alone are hitting about as hard as rank 6-10's, so deneve, helen, clare and miria are striking about as powerful, if not more powerful than alicia, who to my knowledge, before and immediately after the war in pieta, had the hardest downward slash strike out of all the claymores. And lets not forget, that before the war in pieta, cynthia, tabitha, & yuma were 14-40's, so now they're hitting with the power of rank 1-10 easily, while the new generation, compared to the ghosts (the 7 in this list), are - compared to these 7, hitting hard, but not harder than the ghosts by any stretch of the imagination.
All in all, the ghost team is compromised of 7 members ; One leader who does the thinking(Miria), A wild card / trump card(Clare), A strong offense(Helen), A strong defense(Deneve), A Sensor(Tabitha), and Dual medics ; Cynthia & Yuma. It's an all-star team in reality.
Last edited by OpheliasRazor; October 29, 2012 at 08:51 AM.
As for my ranking:
a- Miria is as powerful as an average N.1 and so she deserves the title
b- Clare due to the fact that she is only a quarter Yoma makes this tricky but the position of N.2 is a safe thing, but she can HA and PA so this makes her even stronger than Miria, so I'm gonna say that Clare is as powerful as a N.2 on normal situations but when she partiually awaken she become far more powerful than any average N.1.
c- Deneve is as powerful as a N.3 with super regenration and great overall states so N.3 does stute her.
d- As for Helen, N.5 would be the best position for her, because although she improved much, Deneve surpasses her a little bit on all the basis so I think N.5 does make sense to me.
e- Cynthia, hmmmm for her I think N.7 or something like that would be good but looking at the current N.7, I suppose N.6 is a better position for her.
f- Tabitha! She is an eye indeed but what about her other abilities.. Not that much compared to Deneve but still strong enough to deal with an AB, so N.8 IMO.
g- Yuma.. As for her, she is almost on the same level as Nina which makes me remember when Jean and Deneve crossed swords in the North as Jean defended as she was fighting nothing and the same happened with Yuma and the current N.14, so yeah N.9 is good for her.
As for Galatea, she did improve, but we couldn't see that because she is always put in the worst situations possible but I believe that if she had the chance she can prove that she is not less than an average N.2.
the PA is a suicide attack, and not a technique. and clare can no longer use the partially awakening (jeans wedge). deneve said, that miria has the greater willpower, is stronger, faster etc. so i think, miria could do the same as clare and try a partially awakening. of course only in a dangerous situation. and i'm sure, miria can use now hysterias technique. of course not on her level, this would need lots of training. so imo, miria is the strongest of the ghosts. and if miria would train some years, i'm sure, she would clean up the ground with hysteria - without tricks.
Limiting myself to alive, unawakened warriors.
We have the ranks that the organization gave the current generation of warriors, and we have a pretty good idea of how the survivors of the north stack up against each other. What's unsure is how the current warriors compare to the ghosts of Pieta, and where Galatea fits in.
1. 'Phantom' Mira
She's the strongest of the seven ghosts, and able to beat all the current generation without breaking a sweat. Helen and Deneve, when comparing her to Clare, say that she's the stronger. She also has the best leadership qualities.
She's normally worse than Mira, but has a tendency to freak out and surpass her at moments. She also keeps assimilating parts of other people... most recently Rafaela's technique. Being the protagonist pretty much means that she *has* to win...
3. 'God Eye' Galatea
She was #3, only behind Alicia and Beth, and she hasn't gotten any weaker. The best at yoki sensing, even with competition form Renee, Clare and Tabatha. Possibly the oldest living unawakened warrior.
4. 'Blood Eye' Miata
We haven't really seen her do much lately, but she was a 'potential number one' and was nearly able to take out Galatea. She outclasses Galatea in raw power, but is reckless and inexperienced enough that she'd still probably lose 1 on 1. Her ability to fight/track without sensing yoki gives her an advantage against e.g., abyss feeders or warriors on yoki suppressants.
Number 15 before the time skip, and half-awakened. One of the smartest of the warriors, combined with regeneration for defence and dual swords for offence. Gets a teamwork bonus for her partnership with Helen (as opposed to Bleach or DBZ, fighting as a team is actually important in Claymore).
Seems to get worn out/beaten up sooner than Deneve. Half-awakened. In terms of sheer damage potential, she probably has taken over the title of 'strongest attack' from Jean. Teamwork bonus w/ Deneve
#3 has to count for something. We haven't gotten to see much of her, she's only used the gentle sword once so far. Miata's probably better than her now that Clarice has stabilized her a bit. Teamwork bonus with Rachel.
Former #14, but all we usually see her do is heal people so it's a bit hard to gauge how good she'd be in a fight. That said, she's probably the best healer there is, which itself is worth something. It'd be interesting if she tried to learn Galatea's technique.
Former #5, but there seems to be a bit of a power gap between Audrey/Miata and her.
Well, technically, 10 should probably go to Rafutela since she's still the only one with sensory-obfuscation anti-warrior training.
Tabitha probably isn't all that super strong in a fight, but the combination of her sensory abilities with her continued yoki suppression make her dangerous for covert ops; sort of like a combination of Galatea and Rafaela.
11. 'Tracker' Dietrich
Was able avoid being knocked out by, and kept pace with, Helen and Deneve. Has generally been able to hold her own and contribute usefully to every battle since. Her only real weakness is a lack of a flashy special technique.
Still the weakest of the seven ghosts, even if she is the cutest.
She's not bad, but mostly her ranking comes from her usefulness in providing hair for her allies to use.
All we've seen her do so far is get really unlucky, but she did manage to escape from Riful. I would guess that she's behind Galatea and Tabitha (and maybe Clare) in terms of sensing ability.
Cool hair, and the shadow hunter is sort of neat, but every time we've seen her fight so far she's needed to be saved.
16. & 17. Unnamed Twins
Considering that Alicia and Beth were a match for Riful, and that the younger twins have the advantage of being able to switch off who is the one to awaken, these two have the potential to be take the 1 & 2 spots. Still, they're only trainees and Roxanne was able to wipe the floor with them.
Hard to say. Her special ability could turn the tide in a support role, but it's unclear how useful it is against awakened beings, or how strong in a fight she herself is.
Yeah, she sucks.
PS; "The best defense is a good offense" is bulls**t, A good offense IS the best offense
Last edited by OpheliasRazor; January 04, 2013 at 09:39 AM.