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Likewise, we have seen the limits of Crocodile's, Moriah's and Jinbe's fighting strength. Which pretty much amounts to nothing against a top tier.
Therefor, even if we assume that the other Shichibukai's (i.e. Mihawk, Doflamingo, Hancock, Kuma) are all solid top tiers (which is unlikely) it still wouldn't be enough for the Shichibukai as a group to match the strength of the Marine's greatest (i.e. the Admirals, Garp and Sengoku) - let alone the Marines as a whole.
Now, don't get me wrong. Iva-chan and the others are certainly plenty strong - but they are a far cry from the top dogs of the One Piece universe.
Plus, it's hinted he is now 100% government property, so can you really still count him? Be like counting Whitebeard in the Yonkous.
And being the most wanted man in the world is not a direct indication of power. Don't get me wrong, I did say I believe Dragon is most likely comparable in power to Yonkou captains (i.e. Shanks), however he is the most wanted man because he directly opposes the government in open revolution with a sizable force.
And yes, though I agree Dragon isn't going for open warfare on the government and trying to garner support and liberate certain areas first, I believe my point still holds true. If they were stronger, the revolutionaries would hold a larger majority of the world and be a "rival government", not "revolutionaries".
Then again, most of the reason I think RA cannot be the strongest group is for plot reasons. If RA is filled with fighters stronger than what we've seen of the marines and Yonkou thus far, then who exactly is Luffy trying to surpass again? Would kind of ruin the last few hundred chapters of established plot devices.
And by your "strongest introduced later" logic, Jinbe is the strongest Shichibukai and Mihawk is the weakest? Sure, as a story progresses, the general level of introduced persons is higher. But the strongest? Blackbeard, Smoker and Mihawk would like some serious words with you =P
I just want to point out that the reason the government thinks of the revolutionaries as more dangerous than the pirates is because of their goals. I'm not saying that the revolutionaries are stronger or weaker than either the pirates or the marines, but.....the following should be taken into consideration:
Pirates, as it has been mentioned in a couple of places, don't like to stay in one place. That was why Crocodile trying to take over Arabasta was unbelievable to some at the time (in the One Piece world). It was also why Shanks didn't stay in Fuchsia village for too long. Pirates also thrive on lawlessness, opposing anyone trying to stop them; not engaging law enforcers directly. (this is why Luffy runs from marines, not because he can't beat them)
Revolutionaries, on the other hand, want to overturn governments. Because of this, its strategically important for them to hold the ground they take and expand their influence. It is also important for revolutionaries to have public support, whereas pirates do not care about such things (they're always portrayed as evil). If the revolutionaries start an all out war, even if they have the military power, the casualties and damages caused by such a war would greatly reduce the support the public has for them. (this is also why Sengoku wanted to cut the transmission during the war....to prevent the damage seeing such a scene would do to the World Government in terms of public relations) This is probably why Dragon is waiting for the One Piece world public opinion to turn against the World Government before he makes his move.
Personally though, I think if the Yonkou worked together, the world government AND any allies (Shichibukai) would be doomed. That is why Sengoku was worried about just two of them having a simple meeting. Its kinda impossible to gauge the strength of the Revolutionaries since not much has been revealed about them, so it could go either way.
EDIT: Assuming that the Yonkou do not work together, the marines would be the strongest force in the One Piece world, just because, as things stand, they're holding off the revolutionaries AND the pirates at this time in the story.
Last edited by Anduren; March 13, 2011 at 12:16 PM.
i think we dont have all the facts so we can get to an answer that can be seen has the right one , but although i voted for the Revolutionarie Army i now have some doubts and maybe the Yonkous together could easily be the most stronger, we dont know much about big mom and kaidou but we know that they are very powerfull and by that we can probably get the idea that their crew must be pretty strong , so together with shanks and his crew they would be enough for the marine, if it was them against marine sand Shichibukais i would have doubts cuz if we see Shichibukais really serious, for example Don Flamingo maybe the whitebeard pirates wouldnt have had made somany damage i think.
about yonkous against RA i cant say cuz we dont have much info about RA
...Anyway, that doesn't exclude the "SCARY" powerful part. And you seem to avoided Kuma.
I think you guys (In general) exclude too many things in the ranks. DF alone and rank doesn't make someone top tier, because there are circumstances to be counted in each fight. That includes ALSO escaping from the prison of WG, fighting with many strong opponents and ending considerably WELL after the war finished (See Boa Hancok boat, Ivankov was alright)
And you seem to forget that World Government is ONE that commans the whole world from more than 400 years, Dragon is nearly 40-60 years old in which case He's not making the RA all his life (So rest 20 to that amount of history of the RA) and needs to first gather social reinforcement and connections between the states (Islands, nations, whatever) in order to create a state. You put it like it's simple enough to just win a war, I see it as complicate as starting a true revolution.
Anyway, your last point is convincing :P The plot one. I still stand by the latest villain is the most powerful. :P (Notice that I add villain to be more clear: Jimbei, Mihawk and even Smoker are not quite the enemies but rivals in some point and allies in a sense)
I've nothing to say about Blackbeard though So you win that one :P
PS: I mean new state when I say "in order to create a state"
PS2: I'm assuming that Dragon created RA and it did not exist before him.
Last edited by Uriel; March 17, 2011 at 09:23 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Would it be that dramatic, if Luffy only met Blackbeard at the end? Heck, would it be any suspenseful if Blackbeard had a set power level, and he didn't get stronger with time, just like Luffy does?
I believe many villains who were introduced early on (Don Flamingo, Kuma ect.) were done so they can be intimidating. There is so much build up behind Don Flamingo you just know it's going to be a badass fight.
Anyway, I would change your phrase to "the latest villain fought is the most powerful."
the people I refer to as top dogs (e.g. the Yonkou and their stronget fighters (e.g. Beckman), Marco, Jozu, Vista, Mihawk, the Admirals, Garp, Sengoku etc.).
Which to me, at least, means that Iva-chan, as strong as he is, simply isn't anywhere close to being a top combatant (the absolute strongest) in One Piece.
Note. I do not mean to diminish Iva-chan. A characters "worth" is not defined by his fighting strength, and Iva-chan has an awesome personality with hilarious quirks.
Of course circumstances is important in a fight, but a specific circumstance doesn't change a characters fundamental capacity.
I think that the marines should be considered as strongest group.
In my opinion, they are the strongest force in numbers and they also possess a lot of powerful individuals like the Admirals, Sengoku, Garp and so on.
And to be honest, I would say that Ivankov IS in the same league than Marco and Jozu (Which if we talk about ranks it's three-four stops down of the very top)
Everyone thinks that Ivankov does not use Haki while I think sHe DOES have. We have seen now that Luffy shows some kind of spark while using Haki, which is very similar to the one showed by many characters in Marineford that weren't used before by other similar moves from other characters.
I think there is more to come about Kuma and we have not seen everything from him OR Iva and that will revealed with Dragon when the time is right.
At this point I can't prove my words because it's solely based on my opinion and facts that could be or could not be, but I'll stand by the belief that Dragon Revolutionary Armada is the strongest group and Kuma and Iva are just a hint from Oda for us to measure their strength.
Also I doubt the most wanted man in the world is not surrounded by people that is not on the top tiers, because that would bring questions as "IF admirals are strongest why they did not capture him yet?" or "If He's surrounded by weaklings inferior to admirals...Wouldn't be enough the three admirals together to capture him long ago and avoid the Government so much trouble?" "Only by hiding can be someone THAT wanted?"
I don't know for sure, but everything there smells fishy to me. There HAS to be someone STRONG in order to achieve their goals and have ALREADY the recognition Dragon has.
Let's remember that we don't know the world if it's not by the eyes of Luffy and the Strawhats, which means we lack of big names yet.
But it's opinions here as well, so I can't argue this xD Anyway, I applaud Oda because it's only manga after Hunter X Hunter in which battles are not rinse and repeat and exterior elements brings something new each battle.
I think there are a few issues with how the forces are compared. The shichibukai are a group of seven very strong pirates but if we match just them against the other forces mentioned then they don't have a chance in hell. Each of WB's commanders was strong enough to fight with a shichibukai or an admiral.... The shichibukai would be outnumbered and overpowered. The admirals and VAs are insanely strong too, the shichibukai would lose due to being outnumbered by so many powerful people.
The yonkou are not a force of their own as the world government or revolutionary army is. The yonkou are 4 individual pirates who have their own affairs. What's more, they are enemies. In that sense, a yonko vs marines comparison makes no sense. Also, does this comparison include affiliated crews (who could have members capable of fighting with top ranked marines)? Based on what we saw the WB pirates even without the affiliated crews were a force significant enough to cause severe damage to the world government. With the affiliated crews they are at least as powerful as the marines. If just one yonko is that powerful, then what about the four of them? The scenario is borderline impossible but it is overly obvious that if the 4 emperors were to unite against the world government then the world government would be destroyed easily without leaving a trace.
Considering the above, I'm certain that Smoker will be a recurring adversary for Luffy throughout the New World, just as he was during the Grand Line.
Not to mention that he was portrayed as on par with the Admirals during the war (most notably his initial clash with Kizaru, where both, upon taking an attack from the other, joked that they were hurt).
You don't consider Jozu a top tier? While I certainly don't think that he is right on par with the Admirals, I think he definitely proved his worth when he matched Aokiji for a while, until he was distracted. If you are able enough to fight an Admiral like Jozu did, then you aren't that far off from them.
Looking at their feats and how they were portrayed, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that Iva-chan is even close to Marco and Jozu.
I'm a little uncertain on the subject myself. I can easily believe that she has Haki, if only she hasn't shown any hint of it and I think Oda would've given us at least that, if Iva-chan indeed was a Haki-user. For instance, even Jinbe had several instances where it's very possible that he used Haki (i.e. when he fought Ace and when he caught Akainu's magma fist with his right hand).
That being said, I don't find it far fetched to believe that Iva-chan has Haki. There were obviously many people in the war who were Haki-users (though probably not many with as much panel time as Iva-chan), yet showed no sign of it.
But even if Iva-chan is a Haki-user it doesn't change the way his fighting strength was portrayed by Oda: he simply doesn't match up to the upper echelon of fighters like Magellan, let alone someone like Jozu (or Marco).
And Kuma's laser, while lethally dangerous to pre-TS Straw Hats, isn't much to cheer for post-TS. Both Zoro and Luffy dodged a point-blank laser from Kuma before the time skip, and we saw the contemptuous ease with which Luffy dodged one after the time skip. But since Kuma has probably been upgraded by the fancy Dr. Vegapunk now, I suppose it doesn't really matter...
If the WG could pin him down for an attack by the Admirals like you suggest, they would've done so without hesitation even if Dragon has commanders on par with Whitebeard's. The guy is the most wanted man in the world and is upsetting the sacred order that the WG has set, I think they would take a risk for a chance to bring him down.
Last edited by Wisshard; March 24, 2011 at 03:32 PM.
The Yonkou are obviously the strongest. MHQ + 7BK are out of the question because these two groups figure into the WG's collective total military power. Furthermore, the two combined power only stalemate the Yonkou because the Yonkou fight amongst each other. In addition, with WB's death reinvigorating the "Great Age of Piracy", more pirates than ever are flooding the Grand Line, which further aids the Yonkou.
Not sure about the Revolutionary Army. Oda hasn't touched upon how they influence the balance of power, but they'll probably be counted amongst the pirates' side of the equation considering the Revolutionaries close ties to the Mugiwaras.
Well, even after your great arguments (And I will accept that Marco is on the top A team) I still don't see why thinking of Dragon RA as weak saying that they're elusive when we don't know ANYTHING about the cross that they have with the WG. :/
^I didn't argue against your view of the Revolutionary Army's military strength as a whole. We know little and less of them, and I refrained from speculating on their capacity.
However, I will admit that I think it's very unlikely that Dragon and his merry-band can out-muscle the World Government collected military forces. The Revolutionary Army is undoubtedly strong, but there is a reason (beyond gaining the good will of the smallfolks) that they slowly and cautiously chip away at the outskirts of the WG's territory; because they can't simply bullrush The Holy Land Mariejois (and Marinford) and all but win their revolution in one battle.
I'd think that the Revolutionary Army is stronger than the might of any individual Yonkou (including Whitebeard when he was alive), but weaker then the Marines.