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Write his speed, Kido and ceros off, Shoot to kill.
Flash steps mean nothing in up close swordplay, they are not competing in a race. Shinji needs speed in swinging his sword to match Ken, he has not shown anything amazing in that area. Ken can evade and parry catch weapons bare handed and tank hits easily.
Shinji knows kido, yes. What has he shown, apart that burn he gave to Grim? Did he cast high level spells? Could any of his spells trap or harm a skilled opponent? He has shown none of this. So we can not make things up that kido will help him against Ken.
Cero. His cero was able to break through a cero of a badly wounded Grimjow. Big deal. Ken stopped a stronger cero by Nnoitra with his bare hand just like that. Ceros vs Ken are a no go, not even Shinji's. He must get close and cut him down. Ken avoids a slash from Tousen under his bankai with just a small cut. Shinji barely avoids a slash from Tousen while seeing and hearing normally. The same Tousen who is by your judgement much weaker than Shinji. That is Shinji's best feat to prove his reflexes. Your conclusion is Shinji has EXCELLENT, and Ken has GOOD reflexes. How is that? Ken is better at this, imho.
Power augmentation from mask which he never used with his shikai, nor in his battle with Aizen, a mask that he can keep on for about 3 mins max. Ken has a patch on his eye that he can keep off only for about forever, and was actually shown doing it, doing amazing feats of strenght and stamina as well. We might as well give Shinji the option of using bankai, since we know he has it, and as Kensei has shown wizards can use bankai. Lisa used shikai with mask on, Shinji can too, probably. Not that it would make any difference, Ken is stronger and more durable than him with or without his mask on.
Sakanade this, Sakanade that. Why cant you admit that Ken beat Tousen with his eyes closed, same Tousen Shinji barely avoided with his senses intact? How can you say Shinji is better at base than Tousen, when Tousen cut a healthy Grimjow's arm off and burned it before it touched the ground, while Shinji did not land a cut on a half dead, one handed Grim? Tousen is good when he needs to hype Shinji up, but his performance is poor against Ken? Double standards, guys.
Lastly, Shinji is superior in intellect, he would find a way to kill Ken. He did not show his intellect that much, mister "I can take on Aizen with just shikai, no mask" and I might explain in detail how my power works, Aizen is dumb to figure it out anyway... The same Shinji who in 100 years came up with nothing to fight Aizen with? That man is going to figure out how to beat Ken with his ceros and around Tousen level slashes that have little to no effect on Ken? Really? Stop dreaming, as freshseth said Ken has this in a bag.
Ken wins this by 3:2 votes majority.
Last edited by freshseth83; March 20, 2011 at 03:43 PM.
Yes, once Nnoitora released Kenpachi not wearing his patch made no difference, he wasn't able to land a single hit on Nnoitora other than the playing-dead cheap shot. In other words, resureccion is a far greater boost than Kenpachi taking his patch off, and I actually think Nnoitora's resureccion paled in comparison to most of the other espada.Quote:
Also, as I recall, you're the very same person who has stated in the past that the mask boost was pretty much on the level of a resureccion.
Yes, Kenpachi using kendo is a far more important boost than removing the eyepatch. Fighting one-handed and without any particular form is his biggest way of handicapping himself. That being said, he's going to have a hard time landing a direct hit with kendo because the consesus here seems to be that Kenpachi will just fight Shinji blindfolded and defeat him in a similar way he defeated Kaname. Against Kaname Kenpachi was unable to connect a serious hit without letting himself get impaled first (huge gamble considering Kaname could have nailed one of his internal organs and killed him). So let's say he did let himself get stabbed the way he did with Kaname, and grabbed a hold of Shinji with one arm, how's he gonna use kendo there?Quote:
It's actually already a given that Kenpachi has monster reiatsu. He's like Ichigo in that he's always in constant-release. The problem? He has poor control of that reiatsu, and has his zanpakutous reiatsu also working against his.Quote:
Well, not exactly. Kenpachi holds back a lot when he fights, sure, but same goes for the vaizards. Kenpachi fighting with his sword is basically already his best form, so he had to find some other ways to limit is strength. Other character don't need to do that as they actually have their shikai and bankai transformations. All of the vaizards at this point have fought while withholding something, whether it be the latent effects of their shikai, their bankai, or bankai + mask. I also support the idea that the mask boost becomes far more significant with bankai since it seems to stack with the base power of their current form.Quote:
That's not a fair comparison though. Kenpachi can one-shot Nnoitora in his most perfect form, yes. Is being "sealed" a vaizard's most perfect form? No. And by the way, Kenpachi is in shikai, not sealed. If Love had gone bankai + mask and failed to one-shot Nnoitora, then we can say Kenpachi has superior reiatsu.Quote:
For starters, Love never connected Hifuki no Kozuchi on Starrk. Secondly, Starrk is leagues of above Nnoitora. Yes, including defense considering Nnoitora's reiatsu was FAR inferior to "LOL i kill hollows just by existing."Quote:
Lastly, Love would lay the smackdown on Kenpachi. He's quicker, has far better range, can swing Tengumaru around extremely fast, and apparently also has latent fire abilities. To top it off he has a mask to vastly increase all of the above. Kenpachi would be f*cked. I can imagine him trying to grab Love and getting his arms torn off.
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; March 20, 2011 at 04:06 PM.
Why can't I admit that Ken beat Tousen with his eyes closed? I don't believe I have ever claimed Ken didn't beat Tousen with his eyes closed. I don't see how Tousen sneaking up on Grimmjow makes him as good as or better than Shinji - all this shows is that Shinji has better reflexes than Grimmjow. Shinji's seniority, leadership of the Vizards, mask power and speed augmentation, and speed feats are some indications that he is a more powerful combatant than Tousen. As I've said before, it's pretty clear Shinji was not trying to kill Grimmjow in their skirmish - he was probably there just to show the Espada which side the Vizards were on.
I don't understand why lack of feats (for obvious plot reasons) means we should automatically assume the worst for Shinji. He's on par with ones of the weakest captains power wise...just because? That's no more a valid of an assumption than for me to say he has more raw power than Komamura.
Shoot to kill, why do you refuse to go by the manga? Shinji has not shown any high level kido, but he can use it in the tournament? Why?! Byakuya has shown more than him, but you do not see people claiming he could use above 80 level hado spells, though he probably can, he used Danku, has great knowledge of kido. Do not make things up. I for an example do not claim that Ken would instantly grab Shinji's blade in the begging of their fight and OHKO him by poking him in the head like he tried with Nnoitra? I, as many other refrain ourselves from claiming something like this that is shown and can be easily used by Ken, but you allow Shinji things he has not even shown. Like high level kido and shikai+mask. Might as well give him Bankai to use, he has it for sure, he just has not shown it. Rules of the Tournament are clear, I suggest you read them.
And no one said Shinji cannot cut Ken, we claim that Ken has the ability to dodge them like he did with Tousen. Prove us wrong. Show us the amazing and godly cutting power and sword proves from Shinji that surpasses Tousens by a land slide, and I will stand corrected. Until then, I stand by my point.
Do not bring up the "everyone failed against Aizen" argument in order to justify his stupid behaviour. Shinji was cocky and underestimated Aizen in a way no one else did. The other captains ganged up on him in FKT, Yama tanked his blow in order to strike him, Urahara made a kido seal that did him in. No one in FKT rushed in with leisure at Aizen he has shown. Stupid.
Stupid for Shinji, I'm not calling you stupid. Typo
Last edited by Henry J. Gloval; March 20, 2011 at 04:38 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
I think the comparison comes simply from the similarity in their abilities, so naturally people are going to make the connection, even if Tousen without Vaizard powers is unbelievable garbage.
I think I'm going to have to go with Kenpachi on this one. I believe with eyepatch on, he could beat unreleased Shinji. No problem. He'd tank any ranged attacks and the moment Shinji tries to speedblitz him, Kenpachi will wreck him in CQC because that's Kenpachi's *specialty*. Shinji got hit about as badly by Tousen with all of his senses as Kenpachi did (albeit after some thinking) with NONE.
However, this fight isn't between Unreleased Unmasked Shinji vs. Patched Kenpachi. So, I'm just going to count Sakanade as blinding Kenpachi. I'm going to trust his lack of eyepatch to increase his tanking levels comparably to Shinji's attacking levels. Now, I believe that would afford Kenpachi the reaction time (the time it would take for Shinji's blade to cut Kenpachi) enough time to counter attack, particularly with enough power to maim Shinji. Especially if Shinji's mask breaks or runs out of time. I think Shinji is fantastic and versatile, but Kenpachi, unfortunately, has a very specific set of feats that allow him to match up to Sakanade.
I don't really find Kenpachi's reflex feat against SS Tousen to be better than Shinji's reflex feat against FKT Tousen to any significant degree. To be honest, I'm actually more impressed with Shinji's feat. Let me elaborate.
First of all, I want to reiterate that I still hold that Tousen could have killed Kenpachi had Tousen gone for the head or had he stabbed Kenpachi's vital areas rather than messing around like an idiot. Anyway, Tousen gave Kenpachi time to think; Tousen wasn't attacking quickly enough from different directions. And Kenpachi still took 3 cuts from Tousen, then Kenpachi needed to get stabbed by him so that he could grab Tousen's sword. Also even when Kenpachi was finally able to come up with a counter, Kenpachi still needed to allow himself to be hit by Tousen's sword (Kenpachi just prevented the sword from cutting in deeply) and then grabbed Tousen. The final and most important point I'm getting into now though is the fact the Kenpachi was actually expecting Tousen! Kenpachi knew that Tousen was coming, thus he was prepared.
Now, let's look at Shinji's feat against Tousen-
Shinji was actually focused on striking Aizen, and Tousen (who was standing somewhat nearby Aizen) tried to pull a cheap shot and cut Shinji's head off. Seriously, Shinji actually dodged an attack that was half an inch away from his head that he didn't even expect. I mean, you can see it here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...80-page-3.html Tousen's sword was literally half an inch away from Shinji's head before he began to dodge.
Shinji might have seen part of the swing coming a split-second earlier, but the problem is Shinji himself was moving forward/downwards (toward Aizen). In other words, Shinji had to stop and then bend backwards to avoid Tousen's blade (which Shinji didn't fully avoid; he still got cut). Doesn't change the fact that Tousen's sword was already cutting through his hair before Shinji bent backward and dodged. Also, notice the speed at which Tousen's blade was traveling here: http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...80-page-4.html ...Yet Shinji's insane reflexes still allowed him to keep his head.
Basically, Kenpachi was cut several times, he KNEW that Tousen was coming and he still needed to get hit by Tousen's blade. Further, Kenpachi was also simply standing there waiting for Tousen; Kenpachi was not bending forward/downwards attacking somebody else. Now, Shinji was NOT expecting Tousen at all, Shinji was not only charging at Aizen but also moving forward/downwards towards Aizen before he even began to dodge Tousen's blade. Shinji actually needed to bend backwards quickly and dodge to save his head. That's an insane reaction, reflex, and speed feat. And I believe that the fact that Shinji was able to dodge that in such a way does indicate that Shinji is faster and has better base skills than Tousen, otherwise Shinji would have lost his head.