Manga News: Check out this week's new manga (2/23/15 - 3/1/15).
! Visit the new forums for Tokyo Ghoul and The Gamer!
Forum News: Vote in the final phase of the Anime Awards 2014
We've all seen that Riful, with bars in his human form is very dangerous. But without them, what level has Riful? Her legs and arms speed is the same as she had when she was a claymore? Or faster?
I thought about it after seeing fighting the Helen vs Easley . Also when Riful ran with Dauf and "the devouring abyss" easily overcame her legs speed, although it is true that Riful was very exhausted.
I think their level in human form can be same as when they were claymores. Only when using partial parts of awakening they are well above their level. For example Riful with her bars, and Esaley with his bow.
What do you think?
I think that levels of Claymore, HA Claymores, AB and others creatures in manga depends of level of Yoki which They use during fighting, resting, living. But AB has huge but constant level of Yoki, and Claymores can evolve Theirs level higher due training and practice, even thru achieved HA state.
AB when suppress Their Yoki, like Easley do, has normal human powers and levels, and I think that without some release of it Mature Raki should be able to defeat Easley in normal human to human fight. Then everything is changed when AB or Claymore begin to use Yoki as an booster to Their abilities of speed, power, agility, etc. etc.
So Riful as normal girl in suppression could be defeated by normal strong human (female or male). But in Her awaken state...
Well... "Run to the hills, Run for Yours lives"
Have a nice day
This brings up the issue of Yoki use, versus the inherent strength of Yoma-like bodies.
During Scene 12 in Theo village, Teresa easily dispatches four “humans.” When the two of the three remaining “humans” finally awaken into their Yoma form, Teresa says “You should have summon your power the moment you saw me (thus putting up a stronger initial defense). This I believe strengthens colonywars' statements in the previous post.
Furthermore, in Scene 44, when Galatea rescues Clare, Gal informs Clare that Riffle is downstairs. As colonywars points out, Riffle (in order to reduce her Yoki footprint) may have sacrificed her strength down to human-like levels (perhaps that of a normal human girl) as she's suppressing/hiding her Yoki.
But we might look at Galatea's assessment abilities in another situation.
In Scene 77, Galatea doesn't notice the coming of the Ghosts to Rabona. With the loss of her eyesight and seven years practice, her Wide Area Yoki Perception is more acute than ever. How did she miss their coming?
In Scene 68, Louvre reassures the Council meeting that any survivors of the Northern Campaign would have completely suppressed their auras (no use looking for them), as if it were “fact.” Later, in Scene 72, Audrey states that the Ghosts have completely suppressed their Yoki aura, as if it were “fact.” While these two “facts” prove nothing, if we do tentatively accept them for the moment, we still have to account for feats of super-human strength by the warriors.
If the Ghosts can completely suppressed their auras, how did they jump on the rooftops? And presumedly, they didn't take their time getting to Rabona once they detected Agatha attacking the city. Surely they “flew” as quickly as they could.
Like Teresa demonstrated in her first encounter with the hit squad (Priscilla & Co.), perhaps it was the inherent strength of the half-Yoma body. We know chimps and other apes have muscle cells that are elongated and are several times stronger the shorter human muscle cells. Perhaps something similar is true with Yoma-like entities.
And again we have Special Attack techniques, like that of the former No. 8, Flora---Windcutter, which use no Yoki. But this technique would presumedly still need a humanoid that is at least partially Yoma (in Clare's case, ¼) to succeed.
To make a bad analogy, think of a Yoma-like body as a car engine of a given size/displacement (a human would be a hamster racing in a wheel by comparison). Think of whatever internal bodily mechanism that drives Yoki energy as a sort of turbo- or super-charger. The human form of the Claymore body already has an inherent strength, but forced air/fuel (Yoki) would add to it. Imperfect comparison, but I hope most readers understand what we're driving at (pun intended! :-)
While I'm unclear about the actual strength of Common Yoma and Awakened Beings in their human form, I suspect that Claymore warriors (with their “big displacement-engine” bodies), even without the use of Yoki, can achieve much of what we humans would call the super-human.
Last edited by jamie95403; March 25, 2011 at 11:59 AM.
I think everyone is mistakenly mixing up things
here's my understanding:
1. Power Level (PL)
2. Yoki Release (YR)
3. Yoki Suppression Ability (YSupA)
4. Natural Yoki Suppression (NYS)
5. an Awakened's "Human-like" body/form vs their Awakened form/body. VS a Claymore's Claymore body/form. VS a Half-Awakened (HAs) Claymore+Half/Partial-Awakened body/form
1. Power Level:
regardless of what body/form they're in, an Awakened is an Awakened, a Claymore is a Claymore, and a HA is a HA. So, a NY, an AB, or an AO in their "human-like" form/body is still extremely powerful, they're definately NOT humans, lol. for HAs, Clare is still extremely powerful in her Claymore body/form (vs her Partial Awakened body/form).
And, we know that we can have a Claymore far more powerful than an (other) Awakened: Teresa, as the best example. Though of course Awakened Teresa would be more powerful than Claymore Teresa.
which gets me to my next point:
They ARE "weaker" in their "weaker" body/form compared to their "stronger" body/form, but that's a far cry, from them actually being weak, lol.
Isley is weaker in his "human-like" form/body than he is in his Centaur Awakened body/form. Luciela: "Ah, in your centaur Awakened form/body, now your arrows are more powerful and you can now control their as well".
Partially Awakened body/form of Clare is obviously more powerful than Claymore body/form of Clare.
Also, in their "stronger" bodies/forms, they have more and stronger abilities. Like I mentioned about Isley. Also, being a centaur, Isley now has great speed vs while in his "human-like" body/form. Luciela has her squid mouths in her Feline awakened body/form, whereas she didn't in her "human-like" form/body. Partially Awakened Clare has her speed legs and huge blade arms, where she didn't in her Claymore body/form.
the "stronger" body/form *IS* more powerful and has more and more powerful abilities as well.
But that doesn't mean that their "weaker" body/form is actually weak, Isley in his "human-like" body/form is just as powerful and dangerous (if not more so) as a rank 1 Claymore is.
think about it this way:
if Isley, Rigardo, Riful, Dauf, Agatha, and especially Priscilla, were weak/vulnerable in their "human-like" bodies/forms, then why didn't anyone try to kill them?
why didn't the ABs try to kill Isley or Rigardo while they were in their "human-like" forms/bodies?
why didn't Isley+Raki try to kill Priscilla while she was not only in her "human-like" body/form, but her "child-regressed" form/body?
And... while on the subject of Priscilla.... if any Awakened is an example of still being powerful in their "human-like" form/body, it is priscilla... just ask... Awakened Alicia.... "human-like" bodied/formed Priscilla smack-decapitates Awakened Alicia DEAD, with such speed, Alicia doesn't even know she's already dead, that Priscilla smacked her head off of her neck, lol!
(self explanatory, lol. more Yoki released = more powerful, less Yoki released = less powerful)
self explanatory as well, and as you've pointed out, the AO's are good at it (like the mentioned already Riful), but others are good at it as well, Claymores (Priscilla was and still is as an AO, one of the best), ABs (Miria barely realized that the "spiderman" was an AB, lol), even NYs.
4. NYS (I made it up it's title):
self explanatory, and what it is/defination: gained from years of not using yoki: the 7 Ghosts, hiding Irene, banished/exiled Rafaela, maybe Blind Nun Latea (Galatea), Teresa (due to nearly never using yoki), Claymore Priscilla (never used yoki as she never needed to, until Teresa), and "Child-Regressed" Awakened Priscilla.
(see #1, as I pretty much already explained most of it in there, lol)
Hege: I think everyone is mistakenly mixing up things
Answer: I don't understand who "everyone" is, what "mistakes" they're making, nor how they're "mixing things up." I think everyone, including you, is doing just fine. Keep up the good work!
Hege: Power Level: if Isley, Rigardo, Riful, Dauf, Agatha, and especially Priscilla, were weak/vulnerable in their "human-like" bodies/forms, then why didn't anyone try to kill them? why didn't the ABs try to kill Isley or Rigardo while they were in their "human-like" forms/bodies?
Answer: Again, the absence of proof proves nothing. We have no history (though there's nothing wrong with speculation, which it remains, absent of proof).
We may speculate what we see as Abyssal Ones and Awakened Beings are survivors of previous battles. Why don't we see potential assassins of these creatures? Perhaps they're already dead :-)
But here we might also rhetorically ask the purpose of the Black Card? Isn't one of the first principles taught Claymore warriors is to kill warriors before they awaken? Didn't Miria try to kill the former male Claymore in the Pablo Mountains before he awakened? That she didn't detect him in time, or strike soon enough, doesn't invalidate the point.
Or to go down to the level of Common Yoma, Teresa after killing four human-form Yoma, says to the two Yoma, that they should have all morphed once she showed up in town. Then collectively, the Yoma pack could have put up a better initial defense.
And in the beginning of the series, we see Clare trying to kill Yoma while still in their human form.
In the Teresa arc, Teresa may have intended to kill Priscilla (we'll never know for sure) that day on the plateau. If so, she made the mistake as Rigardo would repeat in Pieta---being overconfident with a less experience/trained opponent. But Teresa appeared aware of the necessity of killing before Priscilla fully awoke.
So attempts to kill Yoma-like entities before they reach their full power is an established practice, though easier said than done (though everyone is welcome to disagree with all the above!).
All of the above is speculation only!
Last edited by jamie95403; March 25, 2011 at 02:46 PM.
HegemonKhan, You are right, Priscilla in human form was obviously much more powerful than it was in a claymore.
The character that made me hesitate was Riful, Chapter 95, she noticed the "devouring abyss" that fell over but she could not dodge. However, with its bars, she could kill them easily, showing that the bars were much faster than his legs.
About awakened that could have attacked Easley. If him human form as the level he was in a claymore, a simple awakened could not kill him.
And if Rigardo tried, Easley would notice the enormous change yoki Rigardo human form at awakened, and immediately wake up too.
Regardless of these observations, the example of Priscilla is very overwhelming, but I still can not decide. The way to fight for Riful is a long distance, thus, her better advantage are her bars. But Priscilla fight at close range, thus, her better advantage are her legs and arms, then we could compare their limbs with the bars Riful or arch Easley, with which they overcome their level of human form.
Because if so, my idea would not be so crazy, but I have not the faintest idea, and certainly I'm rummaging through things much, hehe.
Last edited by su5so; March 25, 2011 at 03:47 PM.
forgot this about Priscilla:
Don't forget how "child" Priscilla nearly crushed Renee's arm, and caused poor Renee's "pants to turn yellow and/or brown" in utter fear/horror at the "thing" that Raki was traveling with...
further piling on the evidence that Awakeneds are NOT weak in their "human-like" form, hehe. Their Power Level does NOT go away, as "child" Priscilla and Renee's SCARED... S...LESS reaction... irrefutably shows, hehe.
their "human-like" forms are indeed "weaker", than their Awakened forms, but that's ONLY compared to their Awakened forms, it has nothing to do with them actually being weak, lol.
Again, their Power Level, doesn't simply disappear base on what forms they are in. Teresa+Priscilla were extremely powerful despite being mere Claymores, because THEY are powerful. Isley, Riful, and Luciela are powerful, so they're powerful in their "human-like" forms as well.
again the examples are:
Luciela (well not her, as she was nearly out of yoki, like Isley was as well, though he had Priscilla coming to protect him from Riful+Dauf, poor Luciela had no one to protect her from her own sister, Rafaela, hehe)
Rigardo (well not him, though logically how could he command the 30 ABs while in his human-like form, if he weren't more powerful than them, even while in his human-like form, as surely the 30 ABs could kill him before he changed into his Were-Lion form? It's the same with Priscilla, why didn't Isley/Raki cut off Priscilla head while she slept?)*
*I'm sure Rigardo in his "human-like" form could have pwned the 24 Claymores as well, but he just can't resist himself, and his battle/blood-lust hehe (maybe Rigardo's embarrased by his easy lost of control, thus why he despises Isley talking about it-his were-lion form, and why he tries or pretends to try to be in so "emo-control-stoicness" with/of/in his behavior, lol)
many disagree and argue with this, but I feel it explains this well:
it really comes down to Power Level, yes, this is DBZ, nothing really matters, not skills/experience/ nor forms/bodies, it's ALL about Power Level, and the proof of that is:
Teresa and Priscilla
Teresa can pwn anything, even as a mere Claymore, because of her SUPREME Power Level.
Priscilla can stand and yawn as Isley LANCE-JOUST-IMPALES her with his huge lance arm, BECAUSE OF HER POWER LEVEL. Priscilla can STARE DOWN WITHOUT BLINKING at-as Partially Awakened Clare's HUGE BLADE ARMS are flying straight for Priscilla's face, stopping just an inch away... due to a mysterious cause, we're trying/waiting to figure out, lol! ALL BECAUSE OF HER POWER LEVEL !!! Priscilla can allow Infected Dauf pound her into the ground, because of her POWER LEVEL. Teresa can let AO Rosemary bash her around, because of her POWER LEVEL. Priscilla has no fear of the Destroyer, because of her POWER LEVEL, she can pop out the rods from her POWER LEVEL, she can stop a huge projectile with her bare hand, because of her POWER LEVEL. she can destroy the destroyer's shell/exoskeleton body with her Full Power in a single attack, because of her POWER LEVEL. she can destroy the Clare-Destroyer black tentacles (the first time, before Clare-Destroyer tries again, and succeeds in sealing her up) because of her POWER LEVEL. Deneve can stop an AB with her bare hand, because of her (rapidly growth of) POWER LEVEL. etc etc...
Nothing matters in Claymore world, except for POWER LEVEL.
You have the "power" (Power Level) or you don't.
what form/body you have or are in doesn't matter, what matters is power level, and that is what Teresa has, and that is why she's the supreme goddess, even as a mere Claymore. how she can pwn AO Rosemary with NO yoki release, how she can pwn a 4v1 of ranks 1-4 releasing their yoki, while she still releases no yoki! how she can pwn the uber powerful priscilla at 70% YR with a mere 10% YR of her own!
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 25, 2011 at 05:56 PM.
Well, well, well, what a discussion Let put some new facts in this
What are You then going to say about underestimated Captain Undine?
We saw Her first time in Pieta, then Deneve said, She constantly release Her Yoki to keep Her muscles pumped. But it was below 10% (Her eyes had normal color) Then, after fight Deneve finds Her in supply room, and She looks like totally different person, with normal muscles.
So here is one point to speculate, that Yoki flow could be controlled smoothly, and then maybe Teresa when fighting against 4 comrades on Their 10%, 30%, maybe Noel has even 50% Yoki release, use only 9.50 Yoki release in one smooth pulse, even unnoticed to others, and still Her eyes had normal color.
Added to not reply a second post: And why unnoticed? I think, that Theirs concentration of Yoki level was so big, that releasing some Yoki by Teresa was to small to detect in this whole Yoki mess. She could release only 2,34% (pure speculation!) to overwhelm Them all in single pulse, just to get some more speed and agility. So what is 2,34% on 20% 30% or even 50% ? Why I think so?
Remember first Clare fight against AO, when She suppressed Her Yoki to avoid His tentacles. Then She goes to offensive mode, attack with releasing Her own Yoki, and She gets hit. Miria told Her: (not exactly quoted) "If You want to use this technique of Yoki suppression and reading, You must immediately switch between two modes: active and passive. Only then You will be able to sense of somebody's Yoki, and then attack with Your released Yoki." That is why I think, that 4 top five numbers attacking with Theirs Yoki in active mode just had not sense released pulse of Yoki from Teresa. And to fight against Priscilla, when Teresa was getting faster without releasing Her Yoki, She does not have to, because Her already trained, highly developed human body was far more better in basic abilities from young and physical weak new No. 2. Priscilla was just exhausting Her self, and as Irene / Ilene told: (also not exactly quoted) "Teresa must fight depending only on Her basic skills because Priscilla is very good Yoki suppressor, so Teresa's ability of Yoki reading was useless against Her, and this skills even when not so good as Ours are far more better, when comes to fight against Priscilla, who was inexperienced and weak in Her basic abilities"
Edit reason no. 2 : Or maybe because Teresa was so powerful and yet so amazing Yoki hider She can simultaneously release Yoki and hide it to prevent reading it by anybody? Some kind of constant Yoki suppression shield which allows Her to use Yoki in "hide mode"? To be so powerful warrior needs an excellent Yoki Suppression Ability, so why not assume, that She developed something like that. ? Or Her lag time between switching modes form passive to active was so small in picoseconds, that it was below any possibilities to detect differences between releasing and hiding Yoki? Except enemies, who dies being surprised what the hell was going on
Then fighting against Rosemary and snapping off Her arm She can release only 5.23 (pure speculation how much really was release!) of Her Yoki into left arm only, and as We know there is normal that Claymores can awoken and strengthen only chosen part of Theirs bodies (Clare do this in Pieta, Irene / Ilene do this when using QST, Undine do this to boost her muscles, Deneve do this to regenerate only damaged part of Her body.)
Then second point, that having this "Yoki Turbo Charger" it is (at least for Me) obviously, that human body can be trained over normal human limits, and than even with Yoki suppression this already achieved skills and abilities are ready to use on demand. Like Shaolin Monks, which after years of training can do things that normal people can do not, and They don't need for that a special effects. That is why Flora can develop Windcutter attack, which used only human resources but strengthened early by Yoki. That is why Claymores even in suppression can jump higher, move quicker, be stronger than humans, because Their physical base was already pushed over normal human limits.
And once again Ghosts example, that after 7 years training with Yoki suppression Their "Yoki Depended Skills" are also much better, because one come from another, but to first achieve this state it is necessary to training body with Yoki as booster to base abilities, to make abnormal evolution of human body.
But the question given in this topic was:First: what We can name a Human form?Quote:
For Me Human form is like Easley, who recovered in small town with full Yoki suppression and have only normal human abilities already strengthened via Yoki and training with this, but do not use it all in this condition. Then We saw like Easley trained Raki / Lucky, (is He released some Yoki, when do this I don't know, but what reason He may had to? When sparing against human He rather don't need any boost) and from this is My opinion, that Mature Raki / Lucky could defeat Easley in normal "Human to Human" fight. Without cheating from Easley side
Then Priscilla in Her human suppressed form, She frighten Renee, but did She do this with physical strength or psychical one? On this scene I don't see any kind of tighten fist on Renee forearm. I think She just realize in direct contact, with what She has dealing. Maybe Priscilla release some Yoki in single smooth pulse. (Over 9999 thousand ) So it was not like physical strength. And then, when Priscilla fights against everybody still in human form She, with that amount of power, and with abilities to partially awaken body parts She needs on demand, She don't have to change Her eye color (10%) but than in pulse awoke legs on 100% Why not since She is already AB. ? And why not when Captain Undine (normal Claymore or maybe in HA state) do this all the time to keep Her muscles up?
But maybe since Her human form body is stronger then normal human body, when suppressed and without cheating She also can be defeated by some awesome, strong normal human (mean with no Yoki, and Yoma parts) like Galk or Mature Raki / Lucky?
Point of view is always depended from the point of situations and persons who looks, so there is nobody who can not be defeated, but the question is on what conditions take place this fight.
Mature Raki versus Easley in full suppression = I think Raki wins
Claymore against Human = Claymore wins but Claymore in suppression against somebody like Galk or Mature Raki = Raki wins, Galk may also win
Priscilla with full suppression versus Riful = Riful wins, but then We saw that Riful versus half awakened (mean still in human form) AB Priscilla = Riful loose by TKO
Undine with muscle acceleration versus Deneve (single blade mode) = Undine wins, but Undine without muscle acceleration versus Deneve (single blade mode) = Deneve wins.
And as We saw also Raki was able to kill Yoma (but He can not sense it!) And Yomas are far greater predators over Their natural pray. But this Yoma was in HUMAN shape, and after it is awoke who knows, maybe Raki / Lucky will eats the dust? So this "levels" depends from very variable points of view
If somebody read this, I am salute You! For some grammar mistakes I also apologize
Few of them was already corrected
Have a nice day
Last edited by colonywars; March 27, 2011 at 12:53 PM. Reason: Speculations on Reading of Teresas Yoki
Thanks for pointing out how Lucky tried to kill the Yoma while in human form (I forgot about that). There does appears some assumption among the characters within Claymore that Yoma entities are most vulnerable while in human form. The trick is to strike before they awaken.
And your descriptions of the monks helps define for me at least four Claymore performance levels that everyone is discussing here (add or subtract as needed):
1) basic physical level---undeveloped part-Yoma body, untrained, and no Yoki supplement
2) further physical development (from exercise)
3) training (related to above, but with emphasis on discipline---combat tactics and survival rather than raw increases in strength, quickness/acceleration, speed, etc.
4) use of Yoki---if, when and how much
Your grammar is more than understandable enough, and is better than some US native-English speakers with college degrees (which includes more than than a few public figures currently on the US scene :-) !
Last edited by jamie95403; March 27, 2011 at 05:33 AM.
Thank You very much jamie95403 I am still try to improve My English
So maybe... But I already changed upper thread...
So I will not change anything, just if You like to read once again Dark Red section of it. I putted it because I think that HegemonKhan will have some objections to My speculations on Pulse Yoki Release and Yoki reading abilities in passive and active mode I am of course glad that He will , and maybe You to and anybody who likes That is why this is something more than empty dispute.
I putted on that above thread another reason and hypothesis about Teresa's Yoki abilities, so have a nice reading Dark Red section, point 2
And for Your 4 performance levels it is very good conclusion Then as I wrote, everything on island except AB and pure Yomas can evolve, training and increase Their basic levels to be better. But I don't know how this theory will verify to creatures, that living on main land. ?
Have a nice day
Last edited by colonywars; March 27, 2011 at 08:25 AM. Reason: To not apply another thread :)
Interesting comments! Regarding the comments that the level is relative to power. It's true.
But to what extent they can use the yoki in human form? Because truly, if AB would use all his yoki in human form, would be much better! They would be just as fast and strong, but it would be easier to dodge attacks and easier strike with precision ...
Colonywars: "Remember first Clare fight against AO, when She suppressed Her Yoki to avoid His tentacles. Then She goes to offensive mode, attack with releasing Her own Yoki, and She gets hit. Miria told Her: (not exactly quoted) "If You want to use this technique of Yoki suppression and reading, You must immediately switch between two modes: active and passive. Only then You will be able to sense of somebody's Yoki, and then attack with Your released Yoki."
That is why I think, that 4 top five numbers attacking with Theirs Yoki in active mode just had not sense released pulse of Yoki from Teresa."
Answer: I believe this is a very valuable observation, colonywars. I'm ignorant of electronics, but was told of a similar-sounding phenomenon. It goes far to explain the mystery of Teresa (and her smile :-)
Though Irene is shown to be an astute observer, would she be able to detect the tactic of switching instantly between "suppression and reading?" Only if Irene spent enough time around Teresa. But judging from their conversation (my poor judgment, BTW!), it didn't sound as if they had that much contact with each other.
Plus, during the assassination attempt, Irene had to reevaluate Teresa at least twice, after two defeats. So I suspect her knowledge of Teresa was limited. If colonywars' speculation is true, Irene probably would have figured it out eventually, though Priscilla's awakening cut everything short.
su5so: "But to what extent they can use the yoki in human form? Because truly, if AB would use all his yoki in human form, would be much better! They would be just as fast and strong, but it would be easier to dodge attacks and easier strike with precision"
Answer: This is what's known by the cliche: having your cake and eating it too. Common Yoma and Awakened Beings are in human form to disguise themselves. This disguise includes hiding their Yoki. From the village chieftain in Scene 2 to Priscilla in Scene 81, they don't wish their presence known.
To maintain their human form is an act of suppressing their Yoki. And thus are at their weakest, most vulnerable state (see colonywars' messages in this thread on this issue).
Once they start releasing their Yoki, then other Yoma-like entities (Claymore warriors) can detect them, even if they maintain their superficial human form. Awakened Beings, like Priscilla, as shown in Extra Scene 3, can get away with su5so's scenario around human prey, since they cannot detect Yoki.
But unless a Common Yoma or Awakened Being has developed the skill of 100% Yoki aura suppression (as Galatea and the Ghosts apparently have), a Claymore warrior can still detect them, even in human form.
Regarding the utility of human size: some Awakened Beings, like Rigardo and Priscilla, are relatively small (maybe a couple of meters in height?) and do take advantage of the extra maneuverability. But obviously not in disguise.
Last edited by jamie95403; March 27, 2011 at 05:03 PM.
I knew it that somebody, somewhere put this point in discussion. Thank You Jamie
Now despite that what I will write here is taken from My job practice, anybody feel free to discuss, because it is still pure speculation
Why did Galatea, the best Yoki reader ever, do not detect Ghosts presence near Rabona?
Because Her Discrimination Limits
I worked today on machine called Hematology Counter. It is used to make analysis of blood and examine it under angle of content red blood cells (erythrocytes), platelets (thrombocytes), white blood cells (leukocytes) and many others parameters.
And this cleaver machine has something like Discrimination Limits, that allows it to distinguish those above forms of blood cells. And first it is cutting down Noise Background which is not measured (fragments of destroyed cells, some larger unmeasured proteins, other garbages). This is first discrimination limit (DL), then it is measure smallest cells - platelets and after this sets another DL, after this it is measure larger erythrocytes and after sets another DL then largest one leukocytes, sets another DL then some things above like thrombocytes and erythrocytes clots, abnormal enlarged leukocytes, and then another DL sets high noise background (NB) which is not taken to measure.
So I was thinking why to not compare Yoki Reading Ability to this?
Because: remember when Deneve said to Thabita: focus on pre-Yoki and after this Thabita was able to detect this flow. Why? Because She decrease Her DL to be able sense it. And why She have to decrease it? To gain higher sensitivity but with that She also enhanced NB. Something for something. And Why She kept this DL higher? To prevent overload from flow of information that comes from the NB
Galatea also has Hers DL, also She must kept it on level which allows Her to detect what She needs, but to not been overflow with noise. It is working like a protective headphones, You can hear, but not everything, but Yours ears are safe form noise But when You take them down You can hear a lot of more but Yours ears can be damaged by noise
So Ghost after seven years of Yoki suppression comes to the level, that DL of Galatea where set to high to detect them
Also: remember scene, when Clare was hiding in suppression mode, and Jean come to town? Jean for a moment, single moment detect Her, but then She said it was nothing and carry on. She just put Clare with Her suppressed Yoki to NB.
Aslo: in Rabona Clare for a first time was fighting against Voracious Eater (VE). She was not able to sense it in His suppression mode (He played dead), even when She was close enough, that in normal circumstances She can easily track Him and kill in His "sleep mode". I think that Galatea with Her Yoki Reading Ability could detect that Yoma or also takes it suppressed Yoki as NB. And here We must remember, that Clare was under Yoki Suppression Medicine (YSM), that could also affects on Her Yoki Reading Ability. (She must have take direct physical contact, when She examined Priests to find yoma).
This above makes Me also wonders, that I was mistaken about that, that Yomas can not evolve, because this VE was able to suppress His Yoki to the level, that even Claymore (Clare, but as I wrote maybe Galatea also?) where not able to sense Him in suppression mode.
So this comes to conclusion:
Everything has its own energy and can thus be detected.
In Claymore world it could be presented like this:
Inanimate dead objects > flora > animals > humans = NB things that maybe disturbing in reading so Claymore cuts this signals down. No Yoki but still detectable.
Here is set first discrimination limit to cut this above and then:
pre-Yoki, Ghosts in suppression, VE in suppression, normal Claymores and HA Claymores in suppression caused by YSM.
Here some Claymores can set second discrimination limit to cut this also, because it can still disturbing in reading Yoki flow. And then:
Yomas in human form (Their are suppressing Yoki, but not enough to be not detected), Claymores without suppression, AB in suppression, (Priscilla example, that in direct contact She can be recognized as an AB, poor Renee ), AB without suppression and any other Creatures with normal Yoki flow.
So Ghosts are on suppression level which can be omitted by Somebody with Yoki Reading Ability as an noise, and I think that Galatea should be able to sense Them, but She must first decrease Her DL to gain higher sensitivity Because She never had to, like Tabitha on Deneve suggestion, so She just do not notice Them. Also She was a little busy in that moment, so maybe She has to much on Her head at once
Uffff, long post, I checked it for grammar and spelling, and it should be all right If not take My deepest apologies
Have a good day
Last edited by colonywars; March 28, 2011 at 12:40 PM. Reason: spelling :/
it's not jsut Galatea, NO ONE can detect the NYS status, not Isley, not Priscilla, not Riful, not anyone.....
..... EXCEPT ONE..... Trainee Teresa (she sensed NYS exiled/banished Rafaela)
you might be interested in this:
someone theorized about this (credit is NOT mine):
creating a gigantic Awakened form, uses a huge amount of yoki to make, and uses a huge of amount of yoki to maintain it as well...
thus, you could say that Clare, Rigardo, and Priscilla, are very smart/wise, in creating a fast and nimble/agile small Awakened form, leaving tons of yoki for "OTHER" and "MORE IMPORTANT STUFF/USES"
I personally agree with this person's theory, as it makes a lot of practical sense to me!
your Jean example is not a good one, because:
both Clare and Jean could have used visual/movement to know/"sense" each other's presence.
Jean could have thought she saw Clare's head before Clare moved her head back behind the inn's wall, or Jean could have noticed the "movement" of Clare's head behind the inn's wall.
Also, with Clare, we can't say for sure if Clare was actually using yoki to sense which of them is the leader (Jean), or if she was using other more "conventional cues" to know which of them was the leader.
in real life, we don't need yoki, to tell who's the leader of a country, an army, a business, a sports team, a family, or etc, as there are cues for us, that we know and recognize, without the use of yoki. (as obviously, we don't have yoki in the real world, lol)
so the same can be said in relation to Clare "knowing/sensing" that Jean was the leader, Clare doesn't have to have been using her yoki to sense Jean's yoki to know that Jean was the leader. so, we don't know which it is, and thus why we can't say that Clare was using her yoki to determine Jean as the leader vs using more "conventional cues".
your "voracious eater" in Rabona with Clare example:
1. a correction: he was actually NOT a voracious eater (VE = an Awakened; an AB=Awakened Being=rank 2-47 or an AO=Abyssal One=rank 1), but merely a normal yoma (NY), that was stronger/bigger than most and thus had to eat more (or vice versa, eating more made him bigger/stronger).
I personally distinguish him from ordinary NYs, as a SNY (Super Normal Yoma), hehe
I do the same for Priscilla and ~Destroyer, she's and ~Destroyer are "SAOs" (Super Abyssal Ones), hehe
2. you gave the REASON why she couldn't detect him: she was still on or under the effects of the YSPs (Yoki Suppression Pills = YSM. Medicine vs Pills, lol).
though, she could override them, as you also mentioned, by touch/contact.
(but, Clare's "touching" was not just to sense it, but ALSO to HOLD it in place/still/stuck, so that the Rabona soldiers can impale it with their spears)
so, this does NOT prove that Yomas (in this case just: NYs and Awakeneds) can evolve.
(well the NYs can get stronger at least, to become a SNY like in the cathedral that pre-HA Clare fought/killed. But, evolve, NO)
what it does prove:
Claymores and AOs (Isley, Riful, Luciela, Rosemary, Alicia, and Beth) are NOT the only ones who can have a good Yoki Suppression Ability (YSupA)
the "spiderman"/"Purifier"(purger) male AB had a VERY GOOD YSupA! Miria nor Clare nor Deneve nor Helen could sense him, until it was almost too late, Miria was just able to avoid a fatal hit to her!
this is indeed a bit of a mystery...
unless it's simply bad translation, and they meant to simply mean:
faint/weak yoki, lol
but if pre-yoki is actually meant, than this is indeed a mystery-window into the mysterious "creation process" of Claymores/Awakeneds
I've read your posts and I like all of your ideas, however for me, they go too far into your own interests* and away from what's believable/given to us in the manga. I think you're taking yoki sensing into too much detail, and also I don't see any actual impact of real life factors of combat in the manga, so I do not agree with talking about "experience and more skilled in combat".
Also, I have a hard time understanding them, they're too complicated/complex for me.
so, I still my like OWN ideas (and I'm just stubborn too), lol
*I too try to explain Claymore using real-world science (physics/biology), as appreciatively Yagi does write Claymore so that we can (it's one of the most realistic mangas/animes I've seen)!, and so I too do apply my interests as well just like all of you are doing, though I biasedly feel mine are more "reasonable/rational/supported by the manga" than yours, but again that's my own biasness, hehe. I'm sure each of you feel your explainationss are the same as well. we all like our own ideas the best, and so we think our own ideas are the best, hehe. human nature
anyways, bout yoki suppression "levels", here's my own understanding:
Yoki Suppression Ability (YSupA) = every Yoma (NY, Claymore, and Awakened) can do this to varying degrees. Priscilla (both as a Claymore and an Awakened) was/is one of the best with the YSupA, not even Teresa could sense her, nor Galatea, nor anyone (except Renee, when Priscilla grabbed her arm, nearly crushing it and probably releasing some yoki to do so, which is how Renee was able to sense Priscilla's yoki)! Others who have a good YSupA are: the AOs, "spiderman", Teresa, and probably more.
Natural Yoki Suppression (NYS) = this is what I call what happens when yoki isn't used for years (or yoki is never or rarely used). Those who had this NYS status are: the 7 Ghosts, hiding Irene, exiled/banished Rafaela, "child" Priscilla (when she was traveling with Raki), and maybe Blind Nun Latea (Galatea).
Yoki Suppression Pill (YSP) = self explanatory.
in terms of rankings:
YSupA (though Priscilla's YSup is at least one exception to being the "weakest") = this can be detected by most, however you got YSup vs YSenA (Yoki Sensing Ability), so whichever is better/stronger wins out.
YSP = ONLY Galatea is able to sense Claymores on the YSP. Galatea sensed Dietrich, Miata, and Clarice on the YSPs, and was waiting for them, well actually she went to meet them (Miata and Clarice, hehe). So much for the Org hoping the YSPs would allow Miata and Clarice to "sneek up on" Galatea, lol.
NYS = ONLY Trainee Teresa has been able to sense a Claymore (Rafaela) in the NYS status. But, it has been brought to my attention that maybe Galatea can too (AFTER initially, which she couldn't sense the Ghosts' arrival), but I've been too lazy thus far to invesigate this myself personally to affirm or de-affirm this.
Priscilla's YSupA = NOT EVEN TERESA (NOR ANYONE) could sense Priscilla using her YSupA!
(we Teresa fans/supporters theorize that Teresa too has equally as good a YSupA as does Priscilla, hehe)
*do note that BOTH NYS and YSupA can be "in effect" at the same time (and the YSP too as well, so all 3 can "be in effect" at the same time, hehe)
I have to have the longest post, sorry colonywars! LOLOLOLOL (J/K=joking/playing around)
another mod (she's now a blue/global mod), saladesu, has given me the title:
"Textwall" HK, hehe
Last edited by HegemonKhan; March 28, 2011 at 06:49 PM.
Thank you colonywars for your brilliant analysis!
Please pardon my jest, but to paraphrase Anastasia's comment to Nike, your thoughtful messages are much better than your avatar suggests :-)
Colonywars: So Ghosts are on suppression level which can be omitted by Somebody with Yoki Reading Ability as an noise, and I think that Galatea should be able to sense Them, but She must first decrease Her DL to gain higher sensitivity. Because She never had to, like Tabitha on Deneve suggestion, so She just do not notice Them. Also She was a little busy in that moment, so maybe She has to much on Her head at once.
Answer: Your speculations about background noise levels also have their parallels with radio technology (of which again I'm ignorant of). I'm reminded again of when I Googled “Parasitic Rods” searching for more info on the rods in the Claymore series. Much to my surprise, I stumbled upon the “Yagi antenna”:
“Parasitic rods” in this case means extra rods added to an existing antenna, to boost its power. I began to wonder if our Yagi has a background in technology, engineering or science. The language of radio astronomy also sounds similar to Discrimination Limits and Background Noise levels. Perhaps someone here can further elaborate on this:
In Scene 44, Galatea tells Clare:
“She's (Riffle) done a pretty good job of hiding her aura, but it's still detectable. If you can align wavelengths with your opponent's aura at the correct location, you can find them.” (VIZ translation)
Colonywars: “Everything has its own energy and can thus be detected.”
Answer: I retract my previous statements about Galatea and the Ghost sealing off their Yoki auras 100%. "Almost impossible" doesn't mean "impossible. "When characters say “completely conceal,” what's really meant may be “very, very hard to detect.” In the real world, even the thickest lead shielding leaks some radiation.
In the Rabona incident, when Galatea was pinned down by Agatha, I originally thought that the Ghosts really did conceal 100% their Yoki, and even if they didn't, the background Yoki radiation of Agatha's massive body might have concealed the approach of the Ghosts. But colonywars' explanation is more comprehensive (in the sense that it explains much, much more!).
Colonywars: in Rabona Clare for a first time was fighting against Voracious Eater (VE). She was not able to sense it in His suppression mode (He played dead), even when She was close enough, that in normal circumstances She can easily track Him and kill in His "sleep mode". I think that Galatea with Her Yoki Reading Ability could detect that Yoma or also takes it suppressed Yoki as NB. And here We must remember, that Clare was under Yoki Suppression Medicine (YSM), that could also affects on Her Yoki Reading Ability. (She must have take direct physical contact, when She examined Priests to find yoma).
Answer: Thanks for reminding me! What you've observed here will be repeated in Pieta (Miria and her “play possum” tactic of using half a Yoki suppressant pill).
Thank you again, colonywars!!!
Hege: "your Jean example is not a good one, because:"
Answer: It wouldn't be a good one if in fact Clare was the only one observing the hunting party. In one Scene 41 panel, I counted at least eight people at the street level watching the warriors. There may have been several dozen people on the street looking at them. Yet, Jean detected Clare's presence behind her on the second story of the inn. How did Jean detect Clare?
Again, we may have been mistaken to assume Yoki suppressant work 100%. In the reality of the Claymore world, they work "good enough," and don't have to be 100% for 99% of the situations encountered. The primary purpose by the Org is disguise (hiding the silver eyes), not suppression of Yoki for its own sake.
Hege: "to everyone: I've read your posts and I like all of your ideas, however for me, they go too far into your own interests..."
Answer: Fair enough comment. I myself have little/no interest in tech or science, but I still understood yours and colonywars' thoughts on these matters.
Actually, the same has been said about others posters (who shall go unnamed :-) But for me, I wish to suppress no one thoughts. I appreciate yours, colonywars' and everyone else postings here.
There are no bad/stupid questions, nor bad/stupid answers here. It's an imaginary world and we must let OUR imagination guide us.
And to everyone here:
Please no more apologies about one's English and grammar. You're among friends here (I hope :-)
I'm honored that people from all over this planet have taken up their valuable time to contribute here to what I think is one of the best cultural artifacts of today's world.
Last edited by jamie95403; March 28, 2011 at 07:38 PM.