Last edited by ShootToKill; April 01, 2011 at 05:08 PM.
a trick , yeah its still a trick there are fail magical tricks and etremly hard ones ...
just like aizen nulified soifon's shikai i mean ; i dont think ichigonator even knows how to use reatsu lol but he can just make a whirlewind and desroy everything in a circle
(he was able to blast the land by simply turning his sword) late aizen explains us that destroying a mountain with a sword blow is a fear that he tought was impossible no matter how srong you get
so yeah i think ichigonator kicks aizen's ass himself (not butterflaizen though...)
And what's this about creating a whirlwind and destroying everything in a circle, he's not Kensei lol. He defeated Ulquiorra by giving him an ordinary slash which almost cut him in half (the cero later separated him); that's not gonna work against Shinji. That thing will just be slicing at an optical illusion the entire time. Moreover, when did it show it could HSR from any attack?? All it did was fill in the hole left in Ichigo's chest. That's not HSR lol, that's called reverting back to human form.
Oh god, you still can't see why this is so massively wrong.Quote:
Firstly you're getting the ordering here wrong. I'm saying windows and buildings not being damaged, bar the impact craters cuased by the massive force the two were thrown into them with is an inconsistency. There, done deal. I just explained that in detail. You're now asking me to provide you your necessary proof that it's not, ie: A valid excuse for why buildings would not be harmed with something with enough force to send a human flying back hard enough to rip through steel. There's no logical reason for that to happen, it defies logic, hence a classic Kubo error. There is no denying this.
You are the one claiming it's not an inconsistency. You're the one who needs to provide proof in that regard. Hint: There isn't any, that sequence has no logical basis to stand on.
Secondly, break pillars what? What are you arguing here? The only thing the cero shockwaves ever did was send up a lot of wind and sand, over an impressive distance sure, but that's it. Chump change frankly. Any damage that was ever caused due to those was literally directly caused by the actual ceros themselves. Ie: The big hole that was made in the ceiling and the like.
You argued something that I directly covered in the very quote you argued, and then proceeded to ignore the fact that I'd actually clarified exactly what I meant in that part, and proceeded to argue it as if the clarification wasn't even there, again, despite quoting it. A strawman is thus:Quote:
# straw man: a weak or sham argument set up to be easily refuted
There you go. >>
And you're basing that HOW?Quote:
There's literally nothing to measure there. The only thing that would be there to measure in the top image would be Ichigo and Ulquiorra, both of whom are completely shrouded by smoke. Because, you know, there's a big damn smoke cloud there in the way that still needs to clear. Like I said, Ten to twenty meter distance between the two is pretty good estimate, given this panel: http://www.mangareader.net/94-805-15...apter-351.html
Because there was literally no way they could have been much further away given the blood doesn't remotely fly that far. Unless you have a better panel to measure, of which there isn't one I assure you as Kubo's establishing shots are pretty horrid in this fight, you're not going to get a much better estimate than that to base anything on. This is basic progression of logic here. >>
Straight damage, middle of the arm is not a critical point, rips don't work that way. There, refuted. That was easy.Quote:
Riiiiight... Unless you're saying he dropped it somewhere, fat chance, there was a sword.
You're arguing whether or not he used it. Normally this would be valid, but it cannot be disputed that the damage is too damn straight to logically be from anything else. Hence my interpretation of what happened, because otherwise that scene is DUMB.
Unless you're arguing Kubo's being inconsistent here, in which case by your logic I'm providing you with just what you need to prove that he's being inconsistent, a valid interpretation that flies for what happened that covers it logically and completely, exactly what an argument that a scene is inconsistent in some respect due to stupid breaks from logic needs.
In case it still hasn't gotten through how UTTERLY STUPID that logic was yet. >>
You still don't seem to grasp the difference between cause and result.Quote:
Last edited by Random101; April 01, 2011 at 05:31 PM.
Stop posting them; they make you look weak and insecure.
As is the whole scene with Orihime and Uryu NOT being knocked back, kay? Drop the pretention and stop thinking your argument is inrefutably right. The shockwave shattered pillars but didn't do anything to Uryu or Orihime; defies JUST as much logic. Kay?Quote:
So why isn't IT a valid inconsistency? Because you SAID so?
No, you are the one CLAIMING it's an inconsistency. You've proved it, and what have you accomplished? You've shown be the basis of your argument is from a MISTAKE that Kubo made TWICE, but the SECOND one, Orihime And Uryu not being knocked back, is invalid WHY? Because you're a HYPOCRITE.Quote:
And that is NOT a straw man. Please tell me which one of my claims is a straw man when the ONLY argument I've claimed you've made is the one that you ACTUALLY HAVE, which is WIND vs SHOCKWAVE.Quote:
Are you seriously illiterate or something?
I DON'T CARE about any of this. You MADE the claim that they were close to the blood shroud and it was indicative of something. You MADE the claim that 10 meters was the distance, so YOU have to PROVE it or concede.Quote:
You just constructed a large wall of text to DODGE proof. Don't be like that. You also REQUESTED me to DISPROVE it, which is appeal to ignorance. Your argument is getting MORE invalid by the minute.
Again, I'll show you, your claim is impossible.
No it's not. I told you to refute Ulquiorra saying his arm was plucked off. I brought that as proof that his arm was PLUCKED OFF. You made a claim that goes against manga canon, so PROVE it.Quote:
Strawman. You claimed there was a sword in this panel belowQuote:
There was none.
Stop, you are making up shit to save face. I don't care what your interpretation is. Ulquiorra said it wasn't a cut, his sword was not dripping with blood, so it is NOT a cut. You need to STOP assuming and start PROVING.Quote:
Not to mention this whole thing is irrelevant anyways. You're just refuting for the sake of refuting! To SAVE FACE!
Shockwaves CAUSE pressure disparities.Quote:
Shockwaves CAUSE wind
Wind is NOT a shockwave. Wind is NOT the cause of wind. It's so simple.
Now that's better. You completely changed what you were arguing before, but it's not ass stupid this time. Much more valid. This could indeed have been inconsistency, though in this case due to actual plot rather than simply straight up being a mistake, because both still had to be there.Quote:
However, one is a logical inconsistency. It's physically impossible for something to have enough force to tear a person through a steel cloth and do nothing to simple windows. The other doesn't remotely have any implied force to pick up people.
Those pillars were already damaged to hell thanks to Ulquiorra throwing Ichigo through them (Note first panel behind Ishida). Granted that's a MUCH better application of force, picking up rocks, but they're structurally unstable already, and throw in the energy coming behind the ceros and its a harder case to argue.
Better no doubt. Much better in fact. However not remotely throw a person back hard enough to tear through steel.
Proven they were close enough for the blood splatter to be close. Saying this distance is 10 to 20 meters is reasonable and justified.Quote:
Proven that there's no way to tell how big the hole is. We're given nothing to measure, Ichigo and Ulquiorra are completely shrouded by smoke from that perspective, and all we're given there is a hole and a large amount of smoke. That tell us jack shit with nothing to compare it to. I'm the guy who actually can do things like measure how big things are with perspective. There's no way to tell how large the hole is, particularly since it's the point where the cero would actually be the smallest going through (ie: taking into account the bottom half of it would be inaccurate as hell)
Take the two together, and we have roughly a 10 meter radius for it, because taking the two measurements is the only thing to do. One being an irrefutable close estimate given proximity to something that wouldn't go that far (Ten distance mind is probably bigger than necessary depending how you argue it, but it's hard to tell the angle so it's probably best to give it an overshot estimate), and following the scene where nothing can be told save the smoke cloud is big enough to completely obsure a human body in the air (which 10 meter radius more than satisfies comparatively).
Now prove the hole is even remotely bigger than that. You can't, there's nothing to measure there.
Straight damage, middle of the arm isn't a critical point, tears don't work that way, we're going in circles here dude. >>Quote:
Firstly no I didn't. I said it was a blur, ie: moving the sword so fast his arm became something stupid looking. Like that. Similarly it's still there regardless. Straight damage, etc... All I need there.Quote:
Straight damage = cut. Basic logic. Also your arguement about dripping with blood is stupid. Since when the hell do swords drip with blood given damage? This is exceedingly rare even for this manga. Best example off the top of my head: http://www.mangareader.net/94-57322-...apter-419.htmlQuote:
No blood there, and he cut SIGNIFICANTLY more than an arm there. >>
Now you're getting it. Good.Quote:
Last edited by Random101; April 01, 2011 at 06:23 PM.
This was like, so long ago I can't even remember. I NEVER changed my argument; it was always the same.
You really need to stop. You're blaming a flaw in your argument based on "a mistake by the author". You've dropped your point, concession accepted.Quote:
The sash was Attached to building correct?Quote:
Sash snapped, but the building remained intact. Now, the hollow building is more resistant to destruction than the steel sash. There, your feat of "snapping the steel sash" now sucks.
Logically, a SOLID pillar is even stronger. The Cero's shockwave was straight up more impressive. Deal with it. Actually, that shockwave wasn't even caused by an explosion, it was caused by the FIRING of the cero itself.
First of all, I'm going to show you that it's retarded to say that it's 10-20 meters (reasonable). Actually, didn't you just change your argument? Lol, pot calling the kettle black. Very bad.Quote:
And I frankly don't care if it's "reasonable" or "justified". You made a direct measurement and claimed how long it was to the exact value, and you were just plain wrong. You weren't even CLOSE to it!
No, stop. You're trying to dodge requests for proof because you made a damn argument you could not support. There's nothing on perspective here. I'm going to tell you two thingsQuote:
1) Las Noches' composition is consistent
2) H2 Ichigo's cero caused an explosion.
Based on that inference we can suppose that he was at the dead center of the crater. Got that? Good
No it's not. Let me provide for you more accurate distances. That dot represents H2 Ichigo and Ulquiorra. They are tiny. Even if we said that their height was 1.5 meters there's no way that the crater is only 10-20 meters. It's AT LEAST 70 meters in diameter. So your argument is frankly invalid. Do some pixel measurements and you'll see.Quote:
AS for this? The blood shroud is definitely not 20 meters away from him, unless it was from an aerial view. Which is not true. When you have the lateral view? There's a MAXIMUM of five meters.
Measure pixels. It's not my job but I did half the work for you. You made the claim,Quote:
So I suppose that Gin's arm was...let me think...CUT off?Quote:
Stop talking down at me. Let me show you your argument again.Quote:
Dude, this line of discussion literally STARTED with this, ignoring the part about me mentioning that I'd already mention Kubo was inconsistent:Quote:
You're now arguing plot on this scene (As that's literally the only excuse ignoring people are for some asinine reason more stable than buildings) while the other scene is just straight up inconsistent. Do not talk to me about whose argument changed, you literally contradicted yourself just ultimately arguing both parts are inconsistent here.Quote:
Which is is. Want to prove otherwise? Do exactly what I said in the last two posts when you tried arguing that it's my job to prove that it's not an inconsistency. And prove it's not an inconsistency. This is why it's your job, and why your argument was dirt stupid.Quote:
It's a steal cloth first off. So yes, it is stronger than a building. Oh granted, the building didn't break no doubt, but that's again the inconsistency you've yet to disprove.Quote:
Secondly those are NOT solid pillars. Firstly, they're massive rooms, remember? Ulquiorra Knocked Ichigo into one of them earlier, we saw directly that they're hollow inside. Secondly the thing is structurally unstable, I just showed you Ulquiorra damaged those that were close to them. And yes, steel has a much higher durability than that. Keep in mind the feat isn't just breaking steal, it's throwing a human body back hard enough to rip straight through it and having enough for to still knock them into a building hard enough to cause crators. Which is still better than knocking over a structurally unstable small room in a world where human bodies rarely get knocked back by even getting directly hit by energy blasts, much less the shockwave.
And what did you show? You showed me a picture of a hole and smoke obscuring the two characters that we can't see at all. That shows it's bigger than the generous 10 meter radius HOW? Again, either you're not clarifying what you mean, or you're looking at a completely different picture than me.Quote:
(ultimately irrelevant but still hilarious)
Yes. Which is my point. Where? What size is he in comparison. They're completely obscured by smoke, smoke which doesn't clear until the following panel on that same page. We can't tell how bloody big the hole is because, and say this with me now, there is nothing there to compare the hole to.Quote:
In fact the only estimation that can be given is the one earlier. Ishida and Orihime were roughly 10-20 meters away given that panel I linked. Meaning the hole had to be smaller than roughly that by a fair bit, hence a 10 meter radius is generous. 10 meters is roughly 5 times the size of a normal human, meaning since the smoke cloud well exceeds 1/5 of that, there is plenty of room for there to be anywhere in the dead center there and still have just enough room for the extra smoke above them.
Let me tell you a little something about perspectives here (Character perspectives in art mind not art perspectives, which is two different things entirely). This entire page is directly in Ishida's perspective. It's a standard thing for artists to do, show a character looking at something, then a wide shot, a character looking at it again, then show something much closer in that, usually slowly getting revealed, from 'the characters point of view'. Comics do it all the bloody time.
Look at the following panel, just after Ishida's perspective shot. The smoke is clearing there as we see Ichinator's body. He was obscured from his sight a second ago. That dot? Not obscured by any stretch of the imagination. That's not them. I could get into semantics about how the dot's lower half isn't bigger than his top half considering he's holding the massive form of Ulquiorra's wing, but that's assuming Kubo's consistent from a wider shot not needing much detail and could reasonably be handwaved away.
Mind, you can still think that, you can't literally tell shit in this shot beyond normal art conventions... However compounding both the smoke clearing and the fact that they were not remotely that far away before the blast happened, suffice to say there's no way you're convincing me that that's them. >>
Spread, angle, and perception is what you're neglecting, things I'm all well versed in here. Trust me, it could easily be five meters (Provided the landscape was flat which is not the case, as well as other factors including the degree of difference from our perspective to the dimensions of reality, ie: what angle is straight down from the shot, but that's a long discussion for another time). However I'm giving it a more reasonable estimate based on a number of factors that make the shot trickier to gauge. Namely the curve of the building, the supreme smallness of the characters, the angel of the panel itself, how much area is covered underneath the part we can't see (Keep in mind we're looking at this shot from about a meter and a half up like from a square window, there's a huge amount of distance below we're not seeing even past the blood directly in front of us) how far the blood went, which is easily in the two meter range, among other factors that I might not have anticipated.Quote:
Trust me when I say there's a huge amount of background information required to even begin a huge estimate like this in terms of how art works which would take a massive amount of time to explain. However suffice to say, depending on factors, it could indeed be 5 meters, or it could extend to roughly about 20, this is why I went with the higher end of my estimate. I HEAVILY doubt Kubo's making us look lower down, so am assuming it's a straight up vertical plane we're looking through, which buffers the distance much more than you'd realize.
Cut. His arm with the sword is blurred there, you can literally see it going RIGHT THROUGH where Gin's arm was. This is what I mentioned early about the arm blurring, and why your later attempt to refute me was retarded.Quote:
Quote:When I say his sword was in it, I mean in the hand. EXACTLY like in the Aizen shot what I meant was his arm was moving so fast it looked like only an arm. I never said his sword was there, I said where his sword was in relation to what actually is there. Unless you want to argue AIZEN's sword suddenly vanished in that same panel, that's exactly what I was saying.Quote:
Mind the cleared up image doesn't show the same thing regardless, but that was outright stupid.
Yay, more Kubo inconsistencies. Also yes, yes it was. We literally see his sword arm going RIGHT THOUGH IT.Quote:
Following bit to THAT EXACT LINE:Quote:Keep trying, you might get it yet.Quote:
Last edited by Random101; April 01, 2011 at 08:12 PM.
We're done here. You adamantly refuse to prove your claims that YOU made, you make EXCUSES for the holes in your argument by claiming KUBO inconsistencies so you can make you INVALID argument appear to be valid, and you ignore the blatant contradictions you yourself post.
If you can't prove your claims just admit you're wrong, otherwise your argument is just invalid. It's as simple as that.
Show me two claims that contradicted each other. Otherwise you just pulled shit out of your ass. I SHOWED you how my argument was consistent with links, which is something you DO NOT do.Quote:
No, it's not. The steel sash is weaker than the building, that's just the logic behind it. YOU however cannot accept that so you came up with a DIRT STUPID movearound; the author made a mistake.Quote:
Why don't YOU write the manga then? Are you the author? Do you know how he thinks? I thought so, now sit quietly.
Lol. Steel cloth being stronger than a building?Quote:
And no, you claimed it was an inconsistency, so prove it. You haven't proved it yet; you've just been rattling on and on about what SHOULD have happened without PROOF.
None. at. all.
They're more durable than both steel CLOTH and the buildings in FKT. Not to mention that you misconstrued by statement about it being solid. I mean that they were made of the same material in contrast to buildings being made of windows and attached bricks, plaster, and otherwise.Quote:
Do you not understand that steel cloth isn't actually even CLOSE to 100% steel or something?
Here, higher quality pic, ya happy?
Compositional consistency. Roof's made of stone, nothing else.Quote:
So huge strawman. Nice man.
(ultimately irrelevant but still hilarious)
It's amazing how the same panel can refute your statement three times. I present it to you again. And plus, you still have not given me pixel measurements to exact a ten meter distance on it. STOP MAKING SHIT UP.Quote:
No, you gave me a possibility. Prove that the shot was in Ishida's perspective and not Orihime's. Prove that Kubo adhereds strictly to the practices of other comic artsists. In fact...Quote:
Dude, don't give me shit about angle. It's clear it was less than forty five degrees and given that the biggest margin of error for MY measurement is sqrt2. That means 10 meters is still wildly out of the question.Quote:
My good god man.Quote:
No sword was used. Stop making shit up
Look, I can't keep showing you these higher quality images. GET THEM YOURSELF. You're just denying manga canon, I dunno how to put it otherwise.
Stop, you wrote something that was inconsistent and then wrote something to make up for it. But wouldn't it have been better to have not contradicted yourself at all???Quote:
You don't get it do you? Your contradiction isn't excused because you wrote something consistent after it, it just means you made another contradiction
Concession accepted. This travesty of an argument has gone on too long.
Christ this is getting old.
Shortened due to frankly I'm getting sick of this:
Note my argument half the time consisted of the windows. I say it's inconsistent directly because they in particular weren't touched. If there's a wind gale strong enough to pull a human back so hard they rip straight through steel cloth and keep going, bare minimum they'd break (And frankly the sheer amount of force kept up that long would topple most buildings). This isn't rocket science.Quote:
It's Ishida twice, not Orihime. She's not even in the second shot. While you may not buy the concept, which is stupid but if you lack the background it's still reasonable, that argument alone was just refuted automatically. Learn to read.Quote:
Do you not comprehend that windows aren't remotely sturdy enough to hold against that kind of force, much less bloody plaster? I'm fully aware it's not as strong as full on steel, but it's structure is still VASTLY superior to windows and a structurally unstable stone building.Quote:
You REALLY don't understand how art works. Unless you're just using a different system than me, which while possible I haven't heard of it, but the standard angle is straight up 90 as in the image is taken like a normal picture would be, vertical and dead ahead. 45 would have us seeing, literally NOTHING but the ceiling given how massive it is. Less than that? Yeah... >>Quote:
(Technically we should be seeing the sand with 90 and seeing the edge of the roof, but LOL backgrounds and all)
Look in between the two RIGHT NOW. Notice the blur of his 'Right' Arm, his sword arm mind, going right through where Gin's arm was, and where it was cut off? This is straight up in the middle, between the two of them.Quote:
Don't look at the cut off part up in the air, look down lower at where the stump is, Aizen's chest roughly. Follow Aizen's right shoulder if you literally can't see it, all the way down to the hand. His sword was there. It was cut off. There is no refuting this. We see a massive blur of motion around that arm, the wavy lines making it up are impossible to refute, and it's clearly in the direction of where the arm was, it actually goes ally the way through that entire section. The picture is signifying that Aizen moved his sword arm so quickly his sword, and indeed a large part of his sword hand, beyond those blurred lines was 'invisible'. That's precisely what I was talking about.
Dot's still not obsured, still not them. >>Quote:
You sir are apparently blind.Quote:
It's called clarifications of meaning, something you should have been doing ages ago or reposting the giant hole image repeated wouldn't have taken me so long to see what you actually meant, even if ultimately it was moot by the following panel of Ichinator clearly being obscured where the dot was not (A facet I repeated MULTIPLE TIMES before you actually said a damn thing). Learn to logic. And while you're at it, learn to read everything, and you might not miss the points so hard.Quote:
Last edited by Random101; April 01, 2011 at 08:53 PM.