was in EJ's range, and Yama told him to get back, it is implied that EJ is escapable after being activated as long as Yama isn't keeping you within its range when he actually uses it. So if Yama wasn't holding on to Aizen's arm, Aizen could just Shunpo out of range, which would be especially easy if Yama didn't even know where he was.
This is beside the point anyway, the argument I was trying to make was, since Yama decided to use EJ, which WOULD have killed him and everyone within its radius in the manga, he had no technique which didn't involve self sacrifice which he was sure would finish Aizen - if he did, he would have used it. Since Yama has no preparation time here, he will not be able to use EJ, whether it would kill him in the process or not, and none of his other Shikai techniques have the necessary combined radius and destructive power to guarantee a kill vs Aizen with KS, therefore Aizen will be able to fight without the fear of being instapwned by EJ, hence WW is not needed for Aizen to win.
Black Coffin might not work, however, a sword strike to the head works against anyone
Last edited by ShootToKill; April 09, 2011 at 02:18 PM.
I think Ennetsu Jigoku would be enough to get past the shikai illusions, bankai would be overkill. But Aizen also has a bankai and if he uses bankai, I think Aizen can defeat Yamamoto before Yamamoto can activate Ennetsu Jigoku. In this case Yamamoto will definitely need his own bankai.
[OFF TOPIC] I think Yamamoto's bankai is a huge black sphere which absorbs and devours everything in the vicinity, similar to a black hole in space.[/OFF TOPIC]
In these translations, Aizen state that he is likely weaker than Yamamoto in a direct fight which doesn't involve a third party like WW. He says "I will likely lose in a direct fight but even you, the strongest, can be defeated if I don't fight you directly and use a modded arrancar that was designed specifically against you." I mean Aizen explicitly states that Yamamoto is the strongest and RJ is the strongest:
IMHO when Aizen says RJ is the most powerful zanpakuto, he means that, all things considered, RJ gives the best winning chances to its user. This is what "the most powerful" means. KS is, by far, the second most powerful zanpakuto, we haven't seen another ability that can likely overpower KS in combat but we haven't seen most of the bankai, so who knows?
P.S. Is there a manga site where I can find Ju-Ni translations?
I think we have different views about the properties of Ennetsu Jigoku. I must admit the manga is a bit ambiguous about it but this is how I understand it:
- Yamamoto can prepare Ennetsu Jigoku in combat, it just takes time. How much? I have no idea. Let's say "two minutes". LOL
- Yamamoto can attack an area exponentially greater than FKT using Ennetsu Jigoku. Yes, it doesn't have an infinite radius but I think it's more than enough.
- The problem against Aizen was that Yamamoto had to limit his fire to a certain area because there were barriers and pillars which had to be kept intact. But how would Yamamoto make sure that Aizen would get caught in this area? The only foolproof way was to bind Aizen to himself. LOL In this case Yamamoto would die too because they were practically one person.
Fighting in FKT was to Aizen's advantage because Yamamoto's power is purely destructive but he was fighting in a fragile place. I agree that a sword strike to Yamamoto's head would kill him and anyone else, but I see some problems in the realization of this strategy. As did Aizen, this is why he made a modded-arrancar.
I hope I make sense.
Last edited by Miyagi; April 09, 2011 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
ENetsu jigoku cannot destroy that large an area nor it was meant to do such a thing. If enetsu jigoku was meant to do such a thing then there really would be no reason for yamamoto to prevent the explosion to begin with. I think it is 100% certain that enetsu jugoku would have had a completely different effect had it actually been used. I personally always imagined the fire pillars enclosing on the targets and incinerating them. Anyways, we also have to consider one of the reasons for the huge explosion was because that much power was compressed within wonderweiss. I would think the huge compression of that immense power contributed to making a more violent release of the power and explosion. One way or another, we have no reason whatsoever to believe yamamoto can summon an explosion of that power on his own or at will.
@Miyagi I see where you're coming from, but what do you think about my suggestion that EJ is escapable after being activated prior to Yama actually "implementing it"? Ichigo was within the range of EJ as I pointed out, yet Yama told him to leave, implying that one can escape from within it before it becomes "too late".
My interpretation of EJ is that it's a last resort technique, which is implied heavily due to the sacrifice of Yama and his comrades which would result from its use. Perhaps you're correct in that Yama could make EJ's walls of flames surround a target while he remained outside, but an opponent like Aizen (and Ichigo apparently) would be able to escape it if not held there. I believe that once the walls of flame have been created, they will slowly close in on the target, becoming closer and closer together, until they meet, by which time the "density" of flames will be so great that no one can survive coming into contact with them. However, an individual wall doesn't seem to be enough to prevent an enemy from escaping. So unless Yama uses a Bakudo on an enemy, which would not work on Aizen since he wouldn't know where he was (KS), he would have to hold the enemy within the center of the flames himself, and hence die alongside his enemy.
So summing things up, even were Yama given the time to use EJ, which I don't believe he would be, Aizen could escape it as long as Yama didn't hold him in place. You might ask - "Why then did Aizen bring WW along if he could escape from EJ so easily?" I would say:
1) Yama's Bankai could have techniques which Aizen couldn't avoid even with KS.
2) Aizen, although I would imagine pretty knowledgeable about RJ, would not know everything about Yama's powers, and took WW along as a get out of jail free card if anything, since he wished to leave absolutely nothing to chance.
Last edited by ShootToKill; April 09, 2011 at 03:12 PM.
I'm not quite sure I got your point. Aizen explained that if Yamamoto didn't prevent the explosion, the barrier would have been destroyed. The barrier must have been kept intact, so the explosion should have been prevented.
I don't think WW had fire abilities that could strengthen the power of the explosion. LOL The power of the explosion was equal to the power of Ennetsu Jigoku technique in raw form. Even Aizen stated that it was the case, he said the fire that WW had absorbed would explode. I didn't understand the compression bit, this is reiatsu, this isn't physical matter like a spring that can have compression energy.
I also did not say wonderweiss strengthened the technique at all nor I even made the slightest allusion at him conceivably having any imaginable form of fire ability. I merely argued that one of the reasons for which the explosion was so strong was because the immense power yamamoto meant ennetsu jigoku to have was sealed in such a confined space as was wonderweiss's head. For that matter, do you even know what reiatsu is? Reiatsu means spirit pressure which is different from the reikoryo or spirit power. This manga is all about how concentrated your power is in comparison to others. Besides, reiatsu should be seen as a physical thing. It is not an object but its physical effects have been seen at every point during the manga.
Last edited by ShootToKill; April 09, 2011 at 03:42 PM.
IMHO EJ in FKT was escapable because it had been limited to a small area. All Ichigo had to do was to stay the hell out of this area. (pun intended ) Aizen could also avoid it if Yamamoto hadn't been holding him. I presume, under normal circumstances, it's much harder to escape from it because Yamamoto will spread the fire to a much larger area which, judging by WW's explosion, may be much larger than FKT. IMHO Yamamoto can effectively target everywhere, in or out of the fire pillars.
Your interpretation also makes sense, the fire pillars closing in on the target, similar to Hitsugaya's Ice Prison but in a much wider scale. In this case, Yamamoto has to trap his target inside. Once the target is trapped, I don't think there's a viable way of going out, the fire, just like Jokaku Enjo, will be hot enough to incinerate anything that touches it. But as you said, the target can escape before the technique is activated, just like Ichigo.
We don't know what Yamamoto's bankai is but if I were Aizen, I would think Yamamoto's bankai was unusable in FKT due to its immense destructive power which would likely do more harm than good. IMHO Aizen thought that RJ was still dangerous in its shikai state and he made WW as a failsafe. Considering that Yamamoto had Ennetsu Jigoku, Aizen was right.
If Ennetsu Jigoku can't be used or it fails, then we may see something similar to Kenpachi vs Tousen. Yamamoto will try to catch Aizen, similar to what he did in the manga, and cut Aizen's sword arm off. Can Yamamoto do that? Doubtful. Aizen will be more careful this time because he won't have hougyoku in his chest and he won't have WW. I think Yamamoto's stamina may be the decisive factor in such a fight and Aizen can gradually exhaust him and stab him in the head when Yamamoto is too tired to dodge or use his fire to protect himself.
Saying Aizen didn't go for a head shot because he couldn't doesn't make sense, because TONS of other characters have had perfect opportunities to do so and did not. It simply makes fights boring, and it's why they're so rare.
I really doubt it's a requirement. When Halibel stabbed him, he stabbed her back before dispelling the image, when Hinamori got stabbed, there was no indication of any kind. I don't see a reason to believe that KS is ONLY a better Kage Bunshin. Yes, he primarily uses sight, but he's also used sound when Hitsu and Halibel stabbed him. He also used touch, obviously, or Halibel would have felt that her sword didn't contact anything. The only thing he hasn't used is smell and taste, and unless you simply want to irritate someone, there's no need to. We've seen proof of usage of the senses that matter, so I can't believe that you can find an opening through sight.Quote:
Two very different descriptions though. Yama's is emphasis to it's raw elemental power. Aizen's is just a simple explanation of its mechanics, and we've seen proof of it.Quote:
Last edited by Takahashi; April 09, 2011 at 04:04 PM.
I'm not good at chemistry but I think there was a law of some sort that stated energy could be neither created nor destroyed. Any extra energy, including the energy required to compress EJ, should have come from WW. I don't think WW had enough energy to compress such huge amounts of reiatsu if there was indeed a compression occurred. IMHO WW just deposited the energy in itself, this energy didn't occupy any space, so WW didn't spend energy to compress it, and since there was no compression, the explosion energy was equal to the energy used for EJ technique.
I didn't mean to say Yamamoto was planning to create a similar explosion, WW just released the energy of EJ in raw form and it was strong enough to destroy a huge area. What I'm saying is that Yamamoto, in theory, could create a similar explosion because the energy required came from him. Yamamoto was planning to target a smaller area due to stated reasons.
If Kubo didn't kill Yamamoto in the stated way to save him from embarrassment, it's Kubo's fault that he misled us. LOL On top of that, Kubo made Aizen say that Yamamoto was the strongest and he would likely defeat him in combat. This is my humble opinion but I believe Kubo has never intended for Aizen to be able to stab people in the head, killing any person in a simple manner regardless of his strength.
I think Aizen's opponents have the means to defend themselves provided that they have enough speed and strength. Aizen can exhaust Yamamoto and then stab him in the head, I can understand that. But if Aizen's KS is indeed so hax that there's no defense to stabbing someone in the head, then Kubo has to rewrite the story because it doesn't make sense in its current form.
Yes, it's impossible to know how much energy WW added to the explosion, if at all. This is the good part of having a discussion, looking at the same material but seeing entirely different things. I don't think Bleach or any other manga follows the rules of physics, so anything is possible. If we ever see Ennetsu Jigoku again, it will clarify many ambiguous points.
Anyway, I've gotta go for now, it was nice having a discussion with you guys.
Last edited by Miyagi; April 09, 2011 at 04:47 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
It makes perfect sense. Kubo is restricted by his story. Hell, look at any story, how many times does that bad guy lose when he could EASILY win, but he decides to monologue or something and give the good guy time to kill him? It happens constantly. Same thing with KS. Logically, he could head shot everyone without them even knowing about it, as realistic as it would be, it's bad writing. Just because Aizen doesn't head shot people doesn't mean he's incapable, he's simply bound by what is or isn't allowed to happen.Quote:
In this tournament, we should be tossing aside the plot induced stupidity that hold back the cheapest characters.
Real broken abilities are Gold Experience Requiem and Knocking on Heaven's Door from Jojo's bizarre adventure, those powers are really broken...as well as most omega level mutants from the Marvelverse, but I digress.
Yama's type of strongest though is good. Barragon's ability would beat most opponents hands down simply for the fact that its so deadly and Soifon ( one of the fastest) couldn't dodge it, likely its very hard to dodge ( you know, next to impossible save for probably Aizen, Yama, FG Ichigo, Hollow Ichigo ( the one that trashed) Ulq etc.
Yama's has an elemental zanpakuto thats highly destructive and capable of Aoe attacks, barring an immunity to fire these things alone make him capable of killing any opponent, likely having the highest base stats in every area doesn't hurt either. I could see him killing Barragon fast and easy. Now if Kenpachi was the strongest, simply with just sheer raw power theres no way he could beat Barragon in more scenarios.
Aizen has access to KS, thats great. Means that there are some scenarios that he could get wins but Yama wins more and in the end you just have to go with the old dude.