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Actually, I dont think people can just say its opinion whether Harribel was 100% health and rieatsu when fighting Lisa on her own despite if either one of them was serious or not.
The facts are:
1. She spent a decent time in a skirmish between shikai Hitsugaya.
2. Charged her sword with her rieatsu (probably max power for her sealed state) and fired Projectile Azul to drop Bankai Hitsugaya down into a house.
3. Released and dropped a water wave over Hitsugaya, then converted an Ice Dragon into a Cascada.
4. Converted Hitsugaya's Icicle spikes only to get nailed and full-body frozen in a Ice Arc from the back.
5. Fired several La Gotas and chased down and fired a Cero Slash at Hitsugaya's Ice Wings.
6. Then got hit with a HH which she obviously couldnt get out of on her own.
All this initself is going to cost quite a bit of a Reiatsu consumption I would think, and just like one-coat-sleeve bankai Ichigo a person can be quite scratchless on the outside but severely lacking in reiatsu on the inside.
And I think its safe say to Say Lisa was 100% fresh while Release Harribel clearly shouldnt be.
Also, Renji's poor control was in one fight, RIGHT when he first used it, same thing happened to Ichigo, we've seen no evidence of that lately. I'm not saying Renji would fair much better, but like I said, defense and range. If you're VC level, Bankai or not, getting anywhere close to a top 3 Espada is a bad idea.
Only Espada to handle a Bankai captain while sealed, but okay.Quote:
There's a lot of evidence to support that she was drained after taking HH... But I know you don't buy it already, so I won't bother.Quote:
Anyway, you're saying Lisa was on par with Released Halibel while she was Sealed, yet we see her use her Shikai, and attack Halibel along with Hiyori and Hitsugaya at the same time, and we see Halibel with no injury from it whatsoever.
If Lisa was actually close to Halibel, her releasing her Shikai, as well as attacking with a captain in Shikai, and someone you think is captain level in Shikai, then how could you think Lisa was a threat to Halibel while Sealed if Halibel could handle not only a stronger version of her, but two more captain levels as well?
I don't think Halibel would win in the end, but surely parrying 3 captain levels even for one clash is impressive no?
Lisa is blitzing Halibel now? If we go by your logic concerning Hitsugaya, then Halibel's CQC won't change sealed or released either, she'll just gain new water attacks. So if released Halibel could handle 3 in CQC, how will she struggle, let alone get BLITZED, by one if her CQC skills remain the same?Quote:
That doesn't settle anything, but I'm not getting into that again.Quote:
She stops at Byakuya, due to sheer versatility. Everyone before him has the potential to be blitzed.
—Renji himself admitted he only managed to take that fraccion out cause he caught him off guard with the power increase from the limiter coming off. Also, they fought different opponents so it's a moot point; I could just say Ikkaku's was tougher.
You mean besides the fact that his bankai still doesn't accomplish a damn thing?Quote:
I know, that's why I think Ikkaku is somewhere between VC and captain level.Quote:
Yeah, another bankai from a young rookie that has yet to master it. Still, he got the above hand against her released form once he brought out his A-game.Quote:
If we had seen them fight for any notable amount of time you'd have a point, but honestly one clash doesn't tell us anything.Quote:
Nonononono. Resureccion is a completely different story from shinigami releases. A resureccion re-releases an arrancar's hollow powers that they have sealed when they're in human form. Hence why I'm saying if Lisa can hang with her when she's released, then obviously she stomps a far inferior version.Quote:
As far as the Renji comment, we've gone over it before, and have different interpretations.
We've never seen him struggle with control since then, that's my point. The end result doesn't matter if we don't see him fumbling with it like he did before. Ikkaku's on the other hand has been described as clunky and slow, which is why I said it before.Quote:
You think Ikkaku is captain level? I'd say he's low VC without Bankai. Him and Renji seem to be roughly the same level IMOQuote:
Again, talking CQC here, as obviously both of their A games turned out to do absolutely nothing to each other. HH as the obvious exception.Quote:
We see her knocking all 3 back, the fact that she could do that against 3 captain level Shikai is impressive to me, but I guess not to you.Quote:
Releases an Arrancar's Hollow powers. That's different than releasing a Shinigami's Zanpakuto powers how? Even your point about Hitsugaya has never been actually stated, it's an assumption (not a bad one), but if you can do the same for a Shinigami, I see no reason why an Arrancar would not fall under the same category.Quote:
And regarding Harribel consuming a lot of reiatsu in her fight against Hitsugaya, I don't think that's the case. Hitsugaya even noted how Harribel was using her energy attacks rather conservatively, and he also basically noted that that was likely part of her strategy against him so that she could later just finish him using some special move utilizing the moisture that was filling the battlefield.
Not to mention that there's also the fact that Harribel later took a nasty slash in her midsection from freaking Aizen, and not only did she not go down from that, but she was actually even able to immediately strike back at Aizen. Therefore, I really don't think that Harribel's reiatsu was really low. I mean, it is well known that fighters in bleach use reiatsu to fight and resist blows to a certain extent.
Renji wasn't even sure if he could have beaten the fraccion that he was fighting even if he had been at 100% power from the start; Renji was seemingly glad that lifting his limit created a good opening, and he even wondered if all the arrancars could possibly be that powerful...
And there's even stuff like one of Szayel's hollows intercepting and tanking an attack from Renji's Bankai...
Honestly, I don't actually see Ikkaku as vastly superior to Renji, but I do think that he's better than Renji. Ikkaku seems to have more experience as well as more skill, and his Bankai may be more destructive and deadly--particularly if used when Ikkaku's not already half dead...
beaten, in shikai, by a sealed fraccion in FKT. And the fight that Ikkaku won in KT where he actually used his Bankai was a rough fight for him, and it was also against a fraccion.
And as I've noted in previous posts, Bankai doesn't give an overall increase to the user's base stats. We even know that Ikkaku's Bankai in particular boosts his destructive capabilities, but it does not give him any kido based abilities nor does it increase his speed or his defensive capabilities. Therefore, Ikkaku may be significantly more destructive in Bankai than in Shikai, but he's still not all that strong in terms of base power and his speed doesn't increase at all when he uses Bankai. And since the power of Bankai actually depends or varies on the user's strength and training, if Ikkaku can increase his base power and stats through more training, his Bankai should also become more powerful and/or more deadly. Right now though, Ikkaku's Bankai isn't as deadly as that of an actual captain due to Ikkaku's base power/strength, stats, and skill still not being quite at the level of a captain. There's even the fact that Ikkaku was really impressed by Komamura's Bankai, to which Iba comments that the difference between Ikkaku's Bankai and Captain Komamura's Bankai must be like Heaven and Earth.
needs to train at least 10 years with Bankai, which Renji certainly does not have. Ichigo doesn't have 10 years of training with his Bankai either;however, Ichigo not only has higher base power than Renji, but Ichigo also has a special and ridiculously fast learning and growth rate that allows him to get better and better at a faster rate in his short trainings and specially with each battle he has apparently.
Lisa being able to hold her own alone for some time against released Harribel in CQC is a good feat for her. And also why there's no way I'm buying that Lisa is still VC level after the time-skip. Not to mention the fact that Lisa even told Shunsui, in FKT, to watch how strong she's gotten. Seriously, Kira who's a VC, was pretty much fodder to the attack of shikai Hitsugaya, and Hitsugaya wasn't even directly attacking Kira. Abilities are certainly very important, but battles in Bleach have still also been noted, in the manga, to be battles of reiatsu, thus I believe that the fact that Lisa alone could hold her own against released Harribel for some time in CQC should really put her at captain level of some sort...
the three of them just clashed once with her, and then Aizen interrupted that 3 on 1 very soon after it was just getting started. Not to mention that we didn't even get to see what zanpakutou abilities Lisa and hiyori may have. Then the fact that Aizen went and got it over with himself and even stated that Harribel was useless to him now, and that she's not strong enough to fight under him makes me believe that that 3 on 1 was really about to go on favor of the trio. I got the impression that Aizen realized that Harribel wasn't going to do so great, and that she wasn't going to last much longer.
Harribel's release made her much stronger and faster--which is why Hitsugaya was glad that he took the precaution of preparing an ice clone tech while Harribel was releasing and activated it before she attacked him, otherwise Hitsu may have been surprised by released Harribel's speed and cut down by her strike.
Furthermore, it also seemed to me like Hitsugaya realized that it was better to keep a distance and go for the long range approach--which was a good idea actually because that is where Hitsugaya seems to excel more. I mean, Hitsugaya even stated himself that he wasn't about to go charging straight at Harribel, and we saw him resort to long range ice techs.
Last edited by Jackk; April 15, 2011 at 11:28 PM.
Also, of course it's Ikkaku's own fault it was so rough because he waited so long to bring out his bankai. It's undeniable that the fight wouldn't have been that close had he not held back for so long. Note that I originally said "if Ikkaku goes bankai right away" he would have a chance against sealed Harribel. Problem is he won't do that in canon so realistically I'd favor the her.
Well he didn't really fumble against Byakuya either, he just had it thrown off by a simple kidou. According to Byakuya it takes 10 years to master bankai. How long was the HM arc after that, a few months? In other words, yes, he was still a LONG way from mastering in it, hence he undoubtedly still had poor control.Quote:
I said somewhere between captain and VC level. I think Renji is a VC level with a bankai he can barely use.Quote:
So what's your point? Like I said, Lisa clearly is far superior at CQC. What Toushirou can or can't do in close quarters is totally irrelevant, and his bankai doesn't help him there either...which is why your original proof by example (that since sealed Harribel was doing well against bankai Toushirou, by default Lisa can't stomp) is flawed on more than one level.Quote:
I didn't say it wasn't impressive, but it's definitely not enough of a reason to say Lisa w/shikai by herself could not have gained the upper hand.Quote:
Since there was 3 of them, there was no need for them to go all out and risk injury and waste reiatsu. They could play it safe, slowly wear her down, and finish her off at their leisure.
And as a side note, it's pretty much a fact that Lisa's Haguro Tonbo does more than what's shown. All shikai we've seen, without any exception, have some sort of latent trait (i.e. an ability that's not immediately apparent). Even if it's something only mildly useful, like breaking down into a tri-staff, they all can do more than a simple weapon change from the sealed zanpakutou. Same goes for Hiyori and her Kubikiri Orochi of course.
That fact that zanpakutou releases are actually no more than changes with their weapons? Again, with the exception of Ichigo, all shikai and bankais only cause their zanpakutou to either take a different form, or gain certain abilities (ranging from summoning a giant to creating a shoulder-mounted bazooka), it doesn't cause the shinigami to himself to morph into a different form. Hell, forget about appearances, we've actually seen arrancars' speed, power, defense, and reiatsu go up after releasing several times now. Shikai and bankai simply do not do this, unless the bankai is somehow integrated with the user's body à la Tensa Zangetsu. The only thing that gives similar stat boosts to resureccions are hollow masks, hence why I've said so many times now that it's piratically by sig: hollow mask is a bigger boost than bankai. Now granted, certain shikai and bankai may still be overall more desirable because of a hax ability, but they do not boost stats the way masks do.Quote:
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; April 16, 2011 at 01:04 AM.
Last edited by Jackk; April 16, 2011 at 01:03 AM.
Bankai Ichigo was physically fine - didnt change the fact that his rieatsu was pathetic compared to his maximum.
Komamura required two slashes to go down by Aizen but we're not going to say his rieatsu was just off from 100% are we? Whos to say HH leaves phyical injuries? Does the 5th seat's shikai from squad 11 leave any injuries on his opponent?
Harribel was nailed by Hitsugayas strongest attack, even is she was saved its bound to have given her more than a stitch, even if she isnt going to show it.
Consider putting Masked shikia Lisa in Harribels place against Hitsugaya in shika and then bankai, and then have her get nailed by HH. Then have her fight with someone 100% fresh with no rest inbetween. If Lisa doesnt put her opponent down in the same skirmish time she had with Harribel....are you willing to say her opponent is equal or probably better than Lisa...?
Last edited by Broken_Wing; April 16, 2011 at 01:50 AM.
Who's to say it saps reiatsu the way Yumichika's shikai does? Yumichika's shikai was actually stated to do just that, IRC the same was never said about HH.Quote:
The thing is ice doesn't really cause physical damage or drain strength. Especially not when you got hierro around you and you're a freakin' water element as well (ice and water are the same element, only in different states). HH is deadly in that it essentially traps his enemies indefinitely. If they can't get out obviously they'll freeze to death sooner or later.Quote:
Well we wouldn't know how well Lisa could handle being put through the same stuff Harribel went through so why even bring that up? I could speculate that Lisa would have been better off than Harribel was, just like you could say she would have been in worse conditions. Neither could be proven right or wrong.Quote:
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; April 16, 2011 at 02:16 AM.
Ichigo only gave Orihime time to heal his wounds and not his reiatsu since he was in a hurry to go help Rukia and the others. That still doesn't tell us that Harribel's reiatsu was in the low when she faced Lisa. And the reason why I earlier brought up Harribel seemingly being fine is because while injuries don't exactly equate to low reiatsu, injuries may still hinder a fighter's performance in terms of reactions and movement (reiatsu helps when defending from attacks and also helps when going on the offensive since it's basically a fighter's internal energy being released).
We actually know for a fact that Yumichika's true shikai works by draining his opponent's spiritual energy...
As for the rest, El Samurai Guapo already covered it.
Yet there's a million things that are said and don't make sense. That Menos are supposedly myths, that Bankai is actually rare and that only __ % ever obtain it. My point is, we've yet to see him struggle with it in such a situation since, so I don't see how it's valid.Quote:
You're the one who brought up Hitsugaya and said once he brought out his A game and had the advantage. My point was that it has nothing to do with CQC because they did nothing but launch long range attacks at each other.Quote:
Okay? Since we don't know what that that ability is, it's moot.Quote:
Shinigami and their Zanpakuto are connected. Regardless of the user changing or not, they're still the same, the user is just the dominant soul. I don't see why the user changing really matters when both are essentially the same anyway.Quote:
No, you did.Originally Posted by Takahashi
Originally Posted by El Samurai GuapoI don't see what makes them fodder. I know that's the popular opinion, but can anyone really prove how big of a gap exists between a sealed espada and fraccion in resureccion? Recall Toushirou also fought a fraccion, and he had to go all with his bankai and limiter removed before he could win. If Ikkaku can trash an impressive fraccion like el dorado by using his bankai immediately (i.e. he's quite a bit stronger) then who's to say he can't fight on par with a sealed espada?Originally Posted by Takahashi
And bankai taking at least 10 years to master was not one of them. At this point we have no reason to doubt Byakuya there, and honestly Renji's poor performances certainly don't do anything to help your case.Quote:
Well it's not moot in the sense that they were still holding back their zanpakutou abilities (albeit for obvious plot reasons) whereas Harribel was already in her most perfect form.Quote:
You'd think it wouldn't, but it does. The fact of the matter is, their zanpakutou are still at the end of the day their weapons, and they hold no bearing on their user's own physical stats. If you put Hyourinmaru in the hands of Rukia, would she be as strong as Toushirou? Nope. In fact a better questions is: Why is Hyourinmaru the strongest ice zanpakutou and not Sode no Shirayuki? Is it cause Hyourinamaru is really better, or is it because its user is a lot stronger than the user of Sode no Shirayuki?Quote:
As for resureccions, we already have a direct line from the manga that states they are different from shinigami releases.
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; April 16, 2011 at 09:14 PM.
That would be a good point, had this opponent not been the 3rd Espada. Trashing a Fraccion could probably equate to fighting a Sealed Espada on somewhat of an even level, but not 4 and down.Quote:
What? His poor performance is NOT due to him fumbling with his Bankai like in the Byakuya fight. I'm arguing against that, not the obvious fact that Renji sucks.Quote:
It's moot because it has nothing to do with what we're talking about, it's all speculation, and I'm not even sure why it's important.Quote:
Yeah, I just saw that, and it destroys what I said earlier. That being said, I'm still not convinced that any of the Vaizard VCs could stomp Halibel in any way. I'm not even convinced they would win, so to hear you say Halibel would be blitzed it beyond ridiculous to me. Then again, I shouldn't have started this expecting to come to a conclusion with you, we're always gonna think differently with the Vaizards (Well, until they get more screentime perhaps)Quote: