Aizen with ease
Aizen with difficulty
Yama with ease
Yama with difficulty
Uh no. You still must not get it. I'm saying he only gave one example of Yama's strength being mentioned. It's not the ONLY time though. You're making an argument against that one example. But I'm just saying he only gave one example in the midst of many. I added my thoughts, which cloudo (My brother) shares. I'm not going to say what you think is wrong but I'm going to give my thoughts. I saw Yama destroying half the town with one technique. By Aizen's words, he 'saved' fkt by covering his fire. It would have done the job of destroying the town and more if it wasn't stopped by Yama. Then the dude has enough strength left to cast one of the biggest hado spells requiring a sacrifice of his arm. There's so many examples of things Yama has done to justify a win here.
You seem to have forgotten that this isn't Shinigami Aizen Yama's fighting here. Chrysalis Aizen is on another level entirely in terms of base abilities. Aizen's admission of Yama's superior power was while he was in his Shinigami form. In his chrysalis form, he was able to rapidly take out 3 top tier Shinigami, including one who was implied to be his equal as a Shinigami, and one who had surpassed him as a Shinigami. This renders any possible references to Yama's superiority over Aizen made before Aizen's transformation null and void. So the only comment left is Ukitake's "no one can replace Yamamoto as CC" comment, which many people have already shown is in no way a reflection of Yama's superior power to any form of Aizen.
Back on topic, Yama believed that Ennetsu Jigoku, an attack which would sacrifice both him and his comrades, was the only way to surely deal with Shinigami Aizen even after he'd been caught. So despite Yama having "the most powerful Zanpaktou", I'm not sure that he has the necessary firepower to destroy Chrysalis Aizen, considering what he withstood, along with his chrysalis form probably having a considerable durability upgrade. Aizen on the other hand, was able to defeat Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi, all of whom are at a very high level in their own right, in a matter of seconds as soon as he began trying. I wouldn't put Yamamoto's speed above Yoruichi's, so there's no doubt imo that Chrysalis Aizen would catch him, and would in fact have somewhat superior speed. He also has the intellect advantage, and probably a considerable knowledge of Yamamoto's Shikai abilities. I'm highly surprised with how many people voted for Yamamoto to be honest.
I don't buy that. Who's to say Yama couldn't take 3 shinigami at once? He took on his two best captains at once, in SHIKAI. I donno if you think he was holding back, but the manga implies differently. Not only that but Yama cooked 3 fraccion with a swing of his sword. Downed Alon without even using a special technique before that. Trapped Aizen, Gin, and Tosen in his fire prison where they couldn't do a thing. Gin even admits it. WW had to have everything cast aside just to seal Ryujin-Jakka, and it still was futile. Aizen would have been dead from that punch in the face if WW hadn't intercepted it. EJ would have cooked Aizen, the Hog, Ichigo, the Captains and probably a good portion of FKT as well. The EJ attack has been discussed to death already, lets not get back into it. Regardless if it was a 'suicidal' attack or not, that's how powerful it was, if it's able to kill Yama. Seeing as how ALL the fire that WW stored exploded with him on top and he still didn't die, I think that's a fuck up in the manga. I don't see anyone surviving all the fire that Yama has. Aizen would have been dead from Urahara and co. from ONE shot- that was GT from Isshin. But again, the Hog' healed him. Aizen would have been dead from ONE shot- that was Gin's bankai. But AGAIN, the Hog' healed him. Why in the world would Yama not be able to do what mediocre (in comparison) Shinigami captains could do?
Since when did the Hogyoku heal Aizen after Isshin's GT? An attack which Aizen would otherwise have not survived (Reiatsu Cuffs, Gin's Poison) seems to precede a transformation. I seriously don't believe that the Hogyoku had anything to do with Aizen surviving Isshin's GT.
As for EJ, the point I was trying to make is that none of Yama's other Shikai attacks seemed to be sufficient to finish Shinigami Aizen, otherwise he wouldn't have used EJ. If this is the case, they certainly won't be enough for Chrysalis Aizen, and he doesn't have prep time for EJ either. Therefore, I believe that Chrysalis Aizen will be able to finish Yama off before he gets the chance to use EJ, the only Shikai technique of his imo which could defeat him.
I don't think EJ was the only technique that could finish Aizen off, actually Yamamoto could cut Aizen's sword arm off and Aizen was as good as dead. lol
IMHO EJ was a plot device to show the power of RJ, to show the ability of WW and to show how powerful Yamamoto is by letting him defeat WW and tank his own attack. Even after Yamamoto lost RJ, he said Aizen couldn't defeat him and the manga didn't disprove this claim. On the contrary, Yamamoto's endurance (after he tanked EJ's flames) amazed Aizen and made him realize he underestimated Yamamoto even when he said Yamamoto could probably defeat him in a fair fight, i.e. KS vs RJ without WW's sealing powers.
IMHO Yamamoto was a great deal stronger than Aizen, this is why he was taken down by his own power. I don't believe EJ was the only way to defeat Aizen but EJ was necessary to lead the plot to a point where Yamamoto could be defeated in a believable manner, by his own power. IMHO "RJ is useless without EJ" and "EJ is useless without hours long preparation" don't do justice to RJ, IMHO RJ's attacks are still very powerful (it quickly brought up flames strong enough to imprison Aizen) and EJ's preparation doesn't take a long time (Yamamoto prepared it while Aizen fought other captains, which didn't take long) and it can be used in combat. Nobody has been shown to resist RJ's flames and if Ukitake's shikai wasn't the perfect counter against RJ's flames, IMHO Shunsui and Ukitake would have been toast, literally.
So IMHO Yamamoto can defeat Aizen who doesn't have hogyoku's healing powers because IMHO it was hogyoku who saved Aizen's behind in multiple occasions including Isshin's GT. If Gin's bankai could kill Aizen, IMHO Isshin's GT must have hurt Aizen quite badly but since hogyoku simply regenerated any damage done to Aizen, all attacks seemed useless. Heck, IMHO Aizen wouldn't go past Urahara's reiatsu cuffs without hogyoku's healing powers. lol Even the almighty FGT Ichigo failed to do permanent damage to Aizen, IMHO people mistake hogyoku's feats for Aizen's feats, hogyoku made Aizen immortal.
As with the above poster the use of EJ was a plot-device.
Yamamoto was making Aizen Bleed just from his fingertips. Imagine a blade through base Aizens arm...slices right off I would imagine. Swap the arm for the neck = Bleach manga is now over.
EJ = multi-city buster, none of the attacks from the Exile Trio were that destructive. It was a way to have Yamamoto out the picture without anyone actually overpowering him.
Hmmm...Tough while Yama is a beast Aizen in this form easily beat Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi 3 powerhouses. I am not sure if Yama alone is as strong as these 3 are together. He may be but i really cant say. The tricky thing about this though is it doesnt matter if Yama can take all 3 of them....He may lose to Urahara and co and still beat Aizen. Its difficult to compare a 1 vs 1 battle with a team vs 1 battle because an individual like Aizen might defeat a team but that doesnt mean he is stronger than the aggregate strength of the team. Aizen took out about 4 captain level shinigami with no KS that doesnt mean he is stronger than all 4 put together or has more reiatsu than all.....So i think its impossible to judge his strength in comparison to Yama....I would simply assume that the hougyoku gave him a boost where he and Yama would probably be about even...So i say a draw simply because we really dont know how strong the boost made him in comparison to Yama...Using Urahara and co as a benchmark is too difficult as we know nothing about they stack up next to Yama power wise either...So i do the cowardly thing and say a draw lol
IMO it was a plot device that Aizen didn't use an illusion to hide himself and cut off Yama's head. The way both Aizen and Yama talked seems to suggest Aizen has absolute control of the 5 senses. If that's not the case at least Yama thought that. Even when Yama caught Aizen he couldn't rely on swinging his sword, if he couldn't rely on his sense of touch to hit him, I think that's why he prepared EJ. It's a massive AOE attack controlled by his sword, that could used to finish Aizen, once Yama knew his location thanks to the sword in the stomach. I the reason he used EJ is because all his other flame attacks weren't strong enough. IMO It's not that RJ is useless without EJ, but RJ is not powerful enough to kill Aizen without EJ. I don't think it would kill Shunsui or Ukitake without EJ either, but seriously injure them.
If you think about it, Yamamoto who has The greatest ATTACK POWER of ALL zanpakuto couldnt kill Aizen in regular shikai, it was stupid of the veteran captains to attack him with just their shikai too.
I mean whats the point of Shinji and Shunsui trying to slice Aizen with a mere shikai blade if he could actually tank all of Yamamoto's flaming swings? Powerscaling down from EJ vs Base Aizen doesnt really make sense for the other captains and the actions they took against Aizen.
He would not have needed to use KS against Hitsugaya/Shinji/Soifon/Shunsui...since their attacks would be pin pricks compared to EJ. Though Im sure Hisagi vs BugTousen has shown that anyone could kill anyone with a normal blade to a vital spot.
Id rather take the PIS of BOTH Aizen and Yamamoto missing the opportunity to lop off each others head. Than the PIS of the other fighters thinking they could kill Aizen with only normal slashes - as people would believe Aizen could tank multiple flaming slashes from Yamamoto near indefinitely so CC had to resort to EJ.
Consider who do you think would pressure base Aizen without KS more...Isshin of Yamamoto (without EJ)?
Last edited by Waking_Dreamer; June 02, 2011 at 08:15 AM.
I think if all the captains released their bankais then the barrier would have been destroyed and it would have been impossible for them to fight as a team. The scale of each bankai would be far too big for them to use all of them together..They would get in eachother's way and might even have injured some of their comrades so i think its reasonable that they didnt...I think Ukitake telling Shunsui not to release his is an example...I mean look at how HUGE the flames of hell were...Imagine if Yama released his bankai's ultimate attack O_O...Everyone of them would have died no doubt...
Yama was already posed the question by Aizen about EJ- that it would catch up the captains as well. Yama replied they're ready and prepared to sacrifice their lives for the defeat of Aizen. So if that's the truth, EJ was enough to kill anyone there, probably why he told Ichigo to back up.
Aizen takes this easily. He is pretty much invinceble. Taking Rei cuffs without damage. Taking a GT in the face which cracked open his shell only for him to appear unscathed once his shell falls. Of. Yama is a shinigami and he simply can't put aizen down due to limitations of bieng a shinigami. He can't even percieve his reiatsu that is one major disadvantage.
This is rather a very unfair fight since Aizen isn't using his zanpakto. But I think Aizen would equally win. The only thing in which Yamamoto surpasses Aizen, is ryuujin jakka, but this fact doesn't matter since this zanpaktoh is offensive and Chrysalis Aizen is inmortal (can't be defeated with brute power).