The Espada win both scenarios
The Espada win scenario #1, but not scenario #2
Soul Society win both scenarios
this many wolves, and although Love and Rose destroyed some with their Shikai attacks, it appears that they re-form. The panel which shows the wolves actually latching onto Love and Rose is zoomed in very close to them, so we can't really tell how many wolves are actually surrounding them. Judging from the number Starrk begins with, the fact that they re-form, and the size of the explosion, I'm inclined to believe that they were attacked by a lot more than 10. They were also hit twice, the first time the wolves broke their masks but didn't seem to injure them greatly, and the second time the explosions caused by the wolves went on throughout Starrk's explanation of what the wolves were, which again indicates that a lot of wolves were used.
I seriously don't believe that I overhype Yama, but I believe that he exceeds all other characters in Bleach in two areas: Raw Zanpaktou power and durability. The former due to Aizen's comment, and the latter due to his tanking feat. The flames of RJ contained within WW had enough explosive power to destroy the Real Karakura Town, and he was able to not only survive this blast, but have enough strength left to perform a Hado level 96. I'll argue against anyone who says Yama will defeat Aizen even if he uses KS, or says that his Reiatsu alone will negate Respira, but I honestly don't think that the wolves will be a problem for him, at least not for long enough to prevent him from killing Starrk. Also, if Love and Rose could destroy wolves with their Shikai attacks, I wouldn't be surprised if Yama's were also capable of doing so.
By the way, Starrk is one of my favorite characters, I'm in no way trying to troll him, I just truly believe in this case that he doesn't really have a chance against Yama.
How the HECK does SS win scenario 1? Even scenario 2 is extremely difficult for the captains. Yama won't be soloing everyone without RJ, wondy, stark and barry combined is more than enough to take him down. Meanwhile yammy, ulq and hallibel should hold off rest of the captains long enough for at least stark to return. Scenario 1 espadas rape.
Look at the resulting explosions, you definitely see nowhere near the 50 or so Starrk started out with. Like I said definitely no more than 10. The first time they got blown up they only got hit by one wolf each, and that alone was enough to knock them out of hollowfication. The second time they were unmasked so there's no way they would have still been standing after getting hit with more than a handful.Quote:
I agree about RJ based on what Aizen said, but I'm still skeptical about him being the most durable. Like I said before, he tanked that explosion but those were his own bloody flames. I don't see how a fire-type like him is not going to have some sort of added resistant to flame attacks, particularly his own! Otherwise, how could he stand to be engulfed by the flames his shikai puts out without being injured himself. Same deal for Toushirou and his ice. If Toushirou somehow hit himself with HH and managed to bust himself out, I wouldn't find that to be very impressive.Quote:
And yeah, he did still have the strength left to pull off a hadou 96, but honestly I doubt that was anywhere near full-powered. That's supposed to be a forbidden sacrificial kidou and all it does is slightly singe Aizen's clothes? That's just proof that Yamamoto was effectively defeated by his own attack.
Only Rose was able to destroy a bunch of them with izayoi bara. To be honest I'm not totally sure how that attack works, but Yamamoto is pretty much limited to throwing fire, and I personally don't think that would damage the wolves at all.Quote:
Well sorry but feat wise he is. He never demonstrated the kind of speed or reaction times Starrk did. And PLEASE don't bring up WW jumping in front of Yamamoto's punch. That's a terrible example of a speed feat. You, me, and anyone else here could do that.Quote:
In Starrk's defense though he had a haori in his face and was mortally wounded. As far as I know Yamamoto doesn't use distractions when he fights, and he doesn't seem like the type to use cheap shots.Quote:
Umm yeah it did. Do you really want me to go through at put up links to all the times he stood around going "ooooh aaaahhh"?Quote:
Starrk at least has Lilynette to pep talk him. If he's reached the point where he brings out the wolves that probably means he's gotten serious, at which point Yamamoto is boned. If by some miracle the guy is still alive after taking 50 of them, Starrk can just break out his 2x energy swords and finish the job himself.
Well that's debatable. I for one wouldn't put his power anywhere near the top 4. Nor do I think Yamamoto could hand to hand any of the top 4 either. I see unarmed Yamamoto at the level of a mid-tier captain using his/her respective shikai. Shikai Yamamoto I would place slightly above a mid-tier's bankai.Quote:
Well I wouldn't say he took no damage. I forgot who I had this debate with before, but I would say that based on the fact that Ulquiorra could HSR while sealed, WW could as well. Mashiro actually KO'd WW for a long time when she dropped kicked him. I'd say he regenerated during that time. But overall it's like you said, Mashiro isn't exactly a powerhouse. You saw how quickly she got taken out w/o her mask. Meanwhile unmasked Kensei casually intercepts WWs fist and tosses him into a building. So yeah, I wouldn't even put masked Mashiro on the level of unmasked/unarmed Kensei.Quote:
That's actually pretty much exactly what I believe.Quote:
I guess so. You probably know by now that I tend to think the vaizards, particularly the former captains, are all a tier above the gotei 13 captains. In other words, if Starrk was able to stop two of them using less than a dozen (that's a generous estimate by the way), there's no way Yamamoto alone survives many more. Also keep in mind stamina is Yamamoto's weakest score in the DB.Quote:
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; May 27, 2011 at 01:26 PM.
And as for being offed by your own attack, do you think Starkk could take the wolves? Barragan can't take his own move, Hachi showed us that... Think Gin could survive his bankai?
I don't think even Rose's attack managed to permanently destroy the wolves, they seem to disintegrate then reform out of nowhere (below the rubble on the ground and there were no signs of them ever going there).
I doubt stark alone can take on yama, although he stands a pretty good chance if he got serious quickly and take WW with him.
Last edited by HaouLelouch; May 27, 2011 at 02:38 PM.
here, and continues onto the next page, well into Starrk's "they're not ceros..." speech. As you can see, on both pages the explosion consists of a number of comparatively small spherical explosions. Now, each of these has to be pretty much instantaneous - a spherical explosion will continue to expand until it dissipates extremely quickly, and we see the spherical explosions still going on after Starrk has been talking for a while on the next page. So this indicates to me that these explosions have been going on throughout Starrk's speech, during which time a significant amount must have occurred - my guess is the original 50 or so.
As for addressing why they were still standing after so many when it only took very few to break their masks, I think that it'd perfectly reasonable. The mask might provide a good speed/power boost, but they are hardly durable - they seem in general to break after only minimal exertion, they only last a few minutes as it is. Just look at how easily Ichigo's shatters on various occasions, and Mashiro's after basically delivering a few kicks to WW.
lol at this thread didn't this already happen? SS win both scenarios, seriously Espada suck -__-
If it was simply a case of the masks themselves being destroyed they should have been able to re-apply them right away. The explosion didn't just destroy their masks though, it caused enough damage that they couldn't re-hollowfy right away. In the cases of Mashiro and Ichigo that's a different story, their masks shattered on them because they hit their limits. Love and Rose has just put their masks on and were obviously nowhere near their limit.Quote:
Strongly disagree. What WW had absorbed was basically just all the flames that Yamamoto had brought out up until that point (he didn't actually absorb EJ like you mentioned further down). If Yamamoto had no added resistant to his own shikai flames, how does he stand to be surrounded/engulfed by them? Same goes for Toushirou as I said in my last post. The kid is literally surrounded by his ice, but clearly it doesn't negatively affect him. I think it's a safe bet to say bleach characters have added resistance to attacks from their own element, or at the very least from their own zanpakutou.Quote:
Okay, you found it impressive; I didn't. There's really no comparable feat in bleach (someone getting hit by their own attack and nearly being offed by it) so you can see how someone like me can have doubts about how big of a tank Yamamoto is. I think he is a tank, but I don't seem him just walking away from twice the amount of punishment that a would easily down a captain.Quote:
I thought that was pretty much exactly what happened. He noticed how conventional attacks wouldn't work on the wolves so he specifically pulled out his sonata #11.Quote:
I would expect Yama to go straight for Starrk too, but Starrk is hard enough to hit as it is, let alone when he's either spamming ceros or has his wolves out. In the case of the wolves, yeah there's no way that Yama is anywhere near 100% after taking 50 (my opinion it doesn't take anywhere near that many to kill him) at which point catching Starrk is going to be bitch.Quote:
Well that's essentially what this comes down to. Either you believe WW solo'd Kensei or you don't. I obviously don't, but I'll admit that if I did I'd be in agreement with you. Bankai Kensei is clearly stronger than everyone in SS besides Yamamoto, and if WW beat him then yes, this means unarmed Yamamoto >>>>>> Bankai Kensei and every other bankai so far. Now what does this tell us about Shikai Yamamoto? He must be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bankai Kensei. What about about Bankai Yamamoto?? See that's what I refuse to believe, that such a TREMENDOUS power gap exists between Yamamoto and everyone else.Quote:
See the thing with Mashiro is that I don't believe she's a CQC expert or even good at it. I think she just fought unarmed cause she's overconfident and dumb. Naturally I would assume Mashiro would be stronger with her zanpakutou. In other words, that just goes to show how big a boost the mask is: it can turn a physically weak VC level into a moderately dangerous opponent even unarmed. In my opinion Lisa and Hiyori fighting unarmed with their masks would have done a lot better, let alone Kensei or one of the captains.Quote:
That's what I was referring to above. That explosion wasn't EJ. That was just all of the flames WW had absorbed being released all at once. Remember that EJ was supposed to have killed Aizen, Yamamoto, and everyone else; we obviously never then saw the completed attack, unless you want to use Gran Maestro's argument (that Yama was lying about himself also dying so his subordinates [who would have died] wouldn't feel bad).Quote:
Last edited by El Samurai Guapo; May 29, 2011 at 08:07 PM.
You people are making me sad
As for being offed by your own attack, it's not hard to believe. For Instance, Tosen was hit by an attack considerably weaker than his own to kill him. Why do you think Byakuya can survive the Bankai release of Senbonsakura, or Kenpachi survive a high-powered sword slash. Actually, that's a point. Kenpachi's attacks are sword-slashes, right? Possibly with high killing spirit behind them? How did Ichigo beat him?
There's nothing to even insinuate that people are immune to their own attacks being used against them, and in fact Starkk dodging his own Cero kinda proves it's effective. Otherwise he'd just take it.
So Yamamamoto being able to survive an attack that had the strongest SS captain ready to die, after being aided by his friend Ukitake, kinda proves that Yamamoto is a tank...
There is really no way SS can't win if Yamamoto can't be contained. I'd say he can beat Barragan quite easily, especially if teamed up with someone else. He can handle Espada >2 on his own, without much effort. Starkk can fight Shunsui and Ukitake, he's out. And Kenpachi, Maryui and crew can mop up the rest...
There's Shikai Kensei owning Hichigo. Yes I realize Lisa has the same feat; that just means she's stronger than Byakuya (remember her taking on Harribel alone before Hiyori and Shiro interfered? Yeah, OK)
If you're feelin' lucky you can have the Ichigo's identity debate:
Lisa vs Byakuya.
I really hope you aren't suggesting that Sealed Lisa unmasked is superior to Bankai Byakuya just because she fought a type of Hollow Ichigo and had a short skirmish with a Halibel who may or may not have been drained after taking HH.
The most obvious problem with that comparison is that Ichigo could not, under any circumstances lose his fight against Byakuya. Whether it be Grimmjow and his random resolve boost in strength that crushes him in a single attack, or a Hollow takeover in his fight against Byakuya, Ichigo will always have an unbeatable powerup when he needs to win. While fighting in his inner world, his outer Hollow Shell had no story reason to win, it was purely an aesthetic way of showing his limited amount of time, and thus, could have the shit beaten out of it.
If this weren't a story, and were real life, sure, I'd bet on the full Hollow guy being tougher than the crazy guy with half a mask, but this isn't the case. It should always be obvious that when in situations where it is 100% necessary for the plot that Ichigo wins to be taken with a grain of salt.
Byakuya being Ichigo's rival in the SS arc was the worst thing that could have happened to him for future fantasy fights, he'll always be underestimated because he lost to the main character. Why doesn't Kenpachi get trashed because of this too...?
I don't think I'm underestimating the Vaizards. Barring Shinji, Hachi, and possibly Love, none have shown anything significant enough to hold so highly. Hopefully they can show something more in the future. Byakuya too.