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That's fine. Though that has to come with a disclaimer of "I'm just assuming it won't be that easy because I've got nothing to base it on but Minato (or whatever character being debated)'s pedigree." I've seen Itachi subdue ninja of Minato's caliber with a single glance. I've seen ninja with actual proficiency in Genjutsu fail miserably against his Genjutsu. Ninja with defined genjutsu proficiency succumbed to both Sasuke and Itachi's Genjutsu, so assuming someone with no displayed prowess in escaping Genjutsu just is not gonna work for me despite their status as high class (because it was high class ninja that were subdued by both these ninja).
The only thing preventing one from accepting that the same thing that happened to Orochimaru would happen to Minato is benefit of the doubt based on his stature, but Itachi has shown us stature is a poor substitute for Genjutsu defense.
Keep in mind, I'm speaking alone of this very specific, very defined situation. I'm not saying the entire fight would be determined by a single Genjutsu. Half the battle is managing to use Genjutsu on a ninja moving as fast as Minato. But let's be real. All it takes is eye contact.
Well, I don't assume the target is immune either. I treat the genjutsu as a strong possibility, but not guaranteed where there is an absence of evidence. For instance, I don't assume that a person will die from an ordinary Katon just because they have not shown a Katon defense. Now if the person is generally slow, I might give the Katon more weight as it might be likely to land.
So if Minato fought Itachi, I'd weigh Itachi's genjutsu heavily due to his strength, but due to lack of evidence of susceptibility to genjutsu with regard to Minato, I would not assign him a one-shot victory over Minato at the outset.
Last edited by jdw; June 12, 2011 at 03:57 PM.
But then we have to break it down, because it's not that simple. What rank is the katon? Is the ninja's katon stated to be stronger than the average katon? Is the katon near instantaneous?
I don't place Itachi's Genjutsu on a pedestal because we haven't seen other ninja defend against it, thus, making it automatically effective. I do so because of how it works. How it's cast, the level of ninja he was able to topple with it (ninja of Minato's caliber mind you), an opponent's (shown) ability with Genjutsu/Genjutsu escaping expertise... every avenue. A ninja with the strongest katon in the world wouldn't be able to hit Minato with it, that's why we can't say it'd work agaisnt him. But a ninja that can lull you into Genjutsu simply by looking you in the eye, or through sound? Without you noticing? It's just alot easier to believe something that easy to be cast could work. What happens after the Genjutsu hits him is anyone's guess, but I lean toward the same thing happening that happened to other ninja of his class when they were hit with Genjutsu.
Originally Posted by kakashidad
But you can't just say "Oh, he's faced Genjutu before, obviously, so he can escape Genjutsu". Thats making up facts. Also, It's possible that Madara couldn't keep Genjutsu control over both the Kyuubi and Minato at the same time. If that were the case then he couldn't do it. If not, then the time they spent talking to eachother face to face before he tried to grab him with his chain was time enough for a Tsukiyomi. They just sat there, chatting. I'm of the opinion the same reason he didn't attempt Genjutsu is the same reason he didn't attempt to use his MS jutsu at all, whatever reason that may be.
i am going with minato his space time jutsu should be more then enough and he has his summoning to battle manda 2 or he can just transported somewhere else. and he is excellent at seals he can take out kabutos jutsus easy.
Minato defeats Kabuto with little effort. He most likely speed blitzes him from the beginning of the fight and even if the first attack fails he will at least mark him with hirashin ultimately ending in kabutos defeat. With edo tensei he likely could of beaten Minato but without it he's defeated rather quickly.
Sorry to but into your debate but your looking at the whole thing from one point of view. Every elite ninja has abilities that make others look like foddler. The same way we seen Itachi own high caliber ninja like orochimaru, and deidara, Minato has done equally impressive feats against the likes of A and Madara owning them. Just like we've never seen Itachi's genjutsu being bested on panel, we've never seen another ninja get around hirashin on panel. So to say Itachi would own someone of Minato's caliber in genjutsu bc he always ends fight quickly with that method can be counter attacked by saying Minato owns ninja just as fast with his abilities. So it's hard to really to judge who would win. At least thats my two cents.
Kabuto can summon Manda 2 in front him, using him as cover, than use a doton to hide in the ground. If Minato teleports it away he can resummon it. Also teleporting something that large takes time and apparently cost a lost chakra because it put a strain on Minato.
Last edited by En Yang Ji; June 12, 2011 at 04:49 PM.
Originally Posted by DaHeroic1
Agreed, but you have to remember: matches count for something. While we can't guarantee Minato has a counter to Genjutsu, we CAN guarantee Itachi has a counter to Hiraishin in Susanoo. It was erected in 1/1000th of a second. It beat lightning, lol.
Though I'll drop it after this because it's way off topic, I'm just reiterating my logic. If a ninja hasn't shown in some capacity to have an answer for a technique that fodderized ninja of his ilk, ninja of the same level, then there is nothing to place him above them in the exact same given scenario. You can argue that he stays on the move to avoid Genjutsu, but that's literally it. That doesn't take into consideration what happens if and when he's actually caught with Genjutsu. And that doesn't protect him from non visual Genjutsu like Frog Song either.
It's not like it matters since Kabuto's Genjutsu is useless in this fight anyway.
"A cannot land a hit on Minato from a distance as thin as a sheet of paper"
Ee dashed in from a pretty good distance away. Just because Minato managed to dodge it at the last microsecond, doesn't mean he actually began to react and evade it at the last moment. I don't even know what to say if you actually think Minato can react to Ee if he started from a millimeter away.
"Minato can teleport Manda II around the field whenever he attacks (as evidenced by the teleportation of the Bijuu blast)"
So far, Minato has only used this jutsu as if it opens a rift/portal for things pass through. He has never shown to use it as if he can just warp anything all over the field, especially incomplete objects. Otherwise, why didn't he just warp off Kyuubi's arm when it attacked him and Kushina.
"[Minato] can rip [Manda II] from Kabuto's control"
Minato broke Madara's mental control of the Kyuubi. None of the regular summons are mentally controlled or bound to its summoner's will. There might not even be an actual "summoning contract" between Manda II and Kabuto seeing how he genetically created him as his pet.
"Minato could basically teleport anything he wants. He can easily telelport Manda II away if he desires"
Again, totally exaggerated. Minato needed Bunta to hold the Kyuubi down to so he can have enough time to build up the necessary chakra to teleport something so large. Manda II is very big if you haven't realized.
"Kabuto regenerate from a incomplete rasengan but Minato's rasengan will be fully complete and is bigger in size than Naruto's regular rasengan I believe. "
There is no such thing as an incomplete rasengan. Minato uses the same rasengan that Naruto and Jiraiya uses, not that its not enough as it is.
"Minato summons being way to much imo."
Manda was able to handle himself quite well against Bunta and Katsuyu. Manda II is bigger, stronger, and faster than the original.
... Claims that base Minato, without Hiraishin, is faster than Armored Raikage...
Is still a baseless assumption as all of Minato's exceptional speed feats are still performed with Hiraishin.
... Claims that Minato owned Ee and would have killed him...
All the latest manga shows is that Minato bested Ee in speed. Minato only managed to to get behind Ee before Bee intervened and the fight ended. Raikage's armor was able to completely knocked Sasuke's raiton blade out of his hands and was barely penetrated by a direct chidori. Minato's kunai attack by all means is just a regular kunai attack. Their is no proof it can even penetrate his shield much less kill him. Cutting Hachibi's tentacle is not proof of any exceptional power. Sasuke cut off a fully transformed Hachibi tentacle with a Chidori spear and lets not forget that some Kumo dude was able to just eat it.
With all that said, Minato wins this. His speed is too much for a poor man's Oro, who haven't shown to be nearly as durable. He's not going to survive getting rasenganed or cut in half.
Last edited by chilibun; June 12, 2011 at 05:09 PM.
Yeah. Bringing Manda 2.0 back would require the same amount of chakra it took to summon him in the first place, and the bigger the object, the more chakra it takes to summon it. That wouldn't be a problem if we knew for a fact Kabuto's chakra reserved dwarfs Minato's... but I doubt it does.
@Deepak: Yeah, I addressed all that already. I stated it's useless in this fight, but explained that Minato won't get a "get out of Genjutsu free pass" in his later fights. It's all above if you care to read through.
Last edited by ninjabot; June 12, 2011 at 05:20 PM.
- Minato wouldn't be able to tag Kabuto if Kabuto is hiding undergound or inside Manda 2's nostrils.
Last edited by En Yang Ji; June 12, 2011 at 05:21 PM.
Rasengan can be different. Minato's rasengan looks larger than Naruto's, and Naruto's rasengan looks larger than Konohamaru's. As we has seen with non-elemental rasengan, the size effects the power.
With respect to A v. Minato, Minato was not shown reacting at all before Raikage was damn near landing the hit. If Minato had reacted sooner, A would never have been that close to begin with. To me it is evident he acted at the last possible fraction of a second. With A closing in, Minato reacting at the last possible second avoided A's full speed. That was just with A's speed one-sidedly. When it was Minato v. Madara, they were advancing on each other and Minato still waited to the last fraction of a second. It is among his abilities to us hiraishin effectively in that manner.
Last edited by jdw; June 12, 2011 at 05:39 PM.