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There's no reason to assume that she doesn't have any explosive tags on herself. All the characters are given any possible tools that they could have on them at any one time that wouldn't require preparation. It's the same logic that's used to justify Minato having plenty of tags and everyone else having shurikens to use. So Konan not using tags against Jiraiya doesn't mean anything for this battle. I don't see why not automatically thinking Jiraiya was using his Toad Silhouette means she's not strategic. An assumption of Henge would be perfectly valid. While ambushing someone is a different situation then directly fighting them, even if Kakashi goes underground, Konan would still gain the edge if she manages to transform into her paper form.
But as far as Konan knew, her master plan was gonna work. It would have worked was it not for Madara secretly having Izanagi. There was no risk of life as far as she knew.
Well said! I used the LeafNinja description of it, so I didn't know there was oil already in his mouth...although even in that description, it only shines after opponent is covered with oil from the Toad Oil Bullet. I'm also curious as to how much oil could really have been there in the one against Konan, considering he pulled it off pretty much instantly and apparently burned all of the oil up...there wasn't any there to prevent her from folding her paper, after all.Quote:
You are correct though, I apologize for stating that there was no oil involved :-)
Eh...she's been by his side for years, right? And she's been studying to be able to fight him...I dunno, his intervals of intangibility and becoming solid don't seem to be that difficult to ascertain. I still can't say I'm impressed, but that's opinion-based.Quote:
The difference with Minato is that he's shown to have plenty of kunai whenever he's actually fighting. Against the Stone ninjas, he had his crew toss a ton of them. Against Madara (when he actually was ready to fight him), he had plenty. Against A and B, he whipped out plenty. The shuriken thing as well...most ninja have been shown to use shuriken/kunai consistently, it's not a huge stretch to think that they have them on them. With Konan, we've literally seen her use explosive tags once, against someone that you would need something like that to prevent him from absorbing your entire technique or escaping it completely. Again, if someone has manga evidence of her using explosive tags from one fight outside of Madara, then I have no problem with it. We haven't seen her fight often, so she's sorta a victim of that, but I still wonder why she didn't use tags on Jiraiya if she has them on her at all times. After all, she attempted to spear him, I would think that means she was trying to kill him.Quote:
The Jiraiya point is also that...she knows his range of techniques. Considering she's ambushing him, she's going to assume he's using a generic Henge tech and prepare against that, rather than a specific ability she knows he uses? Granted she didn't necessarily know that he had a hostage at that point, but even still, why would you attack with a close-range ability rather than the tags if you have tags on your person at all times?
Regarding the Kakashi point. As soon as he goes underground, his strategic mind comes into play. Then we see the bunshins and kawarimis, and we see maneuvering to get her to the point that he can either cover her with water and electrocute her, or set up for a possible kill shot with Kamui. At the very least, he has defensive techniques that can let him hold out against her paper.
Again, I'm not talking about Izanagi hax, I'm talking about her not knowing her chakra would be gone. How many simulations can you run without seeing that 10min of maintaining your technique while exploding crap is going to exhaust your chakra?Quote:
No one else has spent years around Madara studying him...my point was that if you've actually been following/watching him for that long, you should be able to counter him. Hell, even without seeing him do much, Aburame Torune caused him to lose an arm.Quote:
If she didn't regard Jiraiya, one of the Sannin as enough of a threat, and she KNOWS that he knows oil techniques, then her strategic mind is even worse than I thought it was. At least Nagato had 6 bodies to rely on (and notice that he sent the Animal Path one first, so as to be able to summon the rest of the bodies later, just in case). Nagato actually showed damn good strategy against Jiraiya; he didn't use all 6 bodies at once, he summoned the last three when Jiraiya started doing his genjutsu, and he waited for Jiraiya to let his guard down to attack him with all 6. And that's without knowing about Sage Mode, and without spending years coming up with a strategy for that battle. And of course, Pain had already killed the legendary Hanzou; why would he come into the fight thinking Jiraiya was a threat? He didn't seem to be too concerned with any of the Akatsuki members either; there didn't seem to be much insubordination. He at least has a reason for his audacity...where does Konan's confidence come from?Quote:
So...she goes from her preferred method being suffocation to people arguing she will only be using explosive tags against Kakashi in this fight? Regardless, she knows Jiraiya has escape techniques, and she decides to get into to CQC with him? When she has explosive tags to use at all times? At least in Konoha, she was supposed to be getting info first, before killing them. With Jiraiya, Pain told her to go ahead and kill him.Quote:
People keep talking about his low chakra. Was Sasuke considered to have low chakra in Part 1? He could only do 2 Chidori before resorting to the curse seal, and against Gaara, he could barely move after that third Chidori. Kakashi has always been able to do 4 Raikiri, and against Kakuzu, he used 4 Raikiri before Naruto showed up. He was still able to fight for a while, used a lightning strike to free Naruto from Kakuzu, and still finished him off with a Raikiri...and he was fine afterward. If had to use Kamui after all of that (and remember he was fighting off Kakuzu and Hidan for a while), then he would've been bedridden, but other than that, he was fine. He doesn't have Naruto-level chakra, but he doesn't have Genin-level chakra either; he will be fine.Quote:
Again, if he's underground, considering that even Itachi and Pain weren't able to immediately discern he was using a clone, I doubt that Konan would. Kakashi was able to use Kamui without Pain knowing it, and he did it right in his face. He also did it to Susanoo's arrow, which was too quick for either him or Danzou to dodge (and Danzou didn't seem to be that much slower than Sasuke). My point is that Kamui is pretty quick. I don't think he needs much of an opening to get Konan, especially considering it was able to get rid of Deidara's entire exploding bunshin. He implied when he used it on Pain that he could've taken out his entire body if he wasn't damaged from the fight (as well as low on chakra from using Kamui earlier, using Raikiri, Raiton Bunshin, etc.). Outside of her massive number of exploding tags tech, I haven't really seen any tech from her that Kakashi couldn't defend or dodge.
Personally, I don't think he even needs Kamui. He has lightning techniques and water, which is enough for me. You guys keep talking about this fire technique as if Jiraiya was trying to kill her, when it was obvious that he didn't want to kill either her or Nagato, and only began to fight Nagato with the intent to kill when he realized how dangerous Nagato was. In addition, he hit her with one fire technique. She wasn't set ablaze after he got her with the oil, he wasn't firing multiple Katon techs at her, in fact, all he did was hit her once with fire, once with oil, then he wrapped her with his hair. I could understand if we actually saw her surviving someone attempting to kill her, but basically, we've seen her take out fodder, get neutralized easily by Jiraiya, and then get killed by Madara because she didn't know her 10 minute barrage would waste her chakra...the only damage she took in the fight, before Madara stabbed her with the rod, was from her suicidal strike, IIRC, and Madara absorbed enough of that for neither one of them to be particularly hindered. There's a huge difference between someone not experiencing enough attacks to take damage and someone being invulnerable to damage.
Personally, I believe that the only reason we didn't see her take damage before running out of chakra was because she wasn't in a bunch of fights with stronger characters.
Her plan was to use 600 billion tags to keep him from surviving 10 minutes of explosions. Shouldn't her simulations have been her exploding all of those tags? I don't see how she ran all of these simulations, and didn't foresee herself running out of chakra once. If anything, it just makes her strategic mind seem worse, IMO. And if she never tested it at all in real life, then she DEFINITELY shouldn't have been as confident as she was.Quote:
Of course, a lot of this is just my opinion, but I don't think it's unreasonable.
Dude you cannot use your rules to take away the FACT that he has copied 1,000 JUTSU....And my argument was in
line with your rules anyway.Look back at who he's been associated too/with.And who he's defeated or fought.Other
than kekkei kenkai users.Every technique he's seen he can repilcate barring elemental affinty.
I can't for the life of me,not see how this simple fact can be argued against! i mean really..come on?It's not even
funny anymore.Ninjabot brought up the terrain issue.And it took an age to get a definitive reply and we still have
not had one yet...loopholes.
If ths is ti fit how a battle goes in the mods minds or something then any and all rational arguement put forth are
diminshed.Thru ''Rules no jutsu''...if that's not broken then i don't know what is.lol.
Konan's technique takes time to prepare, something not obtainable before hand. Also, the rules are pretty ambiguous with cases like Kakashi, For instance, they don't know details about other ninja, yet if Sasuke knows Chidori it's only 'cause Kakashi taught him. Also, Kakashi knows Rasengan. Naruto was taught the Rasengan by Jiraiya. So, if Naruto were to face Kakashi or Jiraiya he's not gonna know how to deal with his own jutsu being used by someone else? No. Just because he wasn't seen using 1,000 different jutsu doesn't mean he isn't capable of using them. Also, he can copy jutsu on the spot.
Kakashi can't copy jutsu on the spot: he needs to train the jutsu before he is able to use it.
Point is that Kakashi's 1000 jutsu are irrelevent for this fight because we don't what they do , and specualtion is meaningless for this fight: we don't know if any of those jutsu will affect konan in a meaningful way.
Did Kakashi already know Kisame's Suikodan no Jutsu? Unless he already knew that when he encountered him, he copied that on the spot...
Kakashi does it for me but only just - Superior experience and strategist. Knows what tools to use when and where. Downside is low chakra!
Konan's exploding jutsu will take a long time to set up.
That being said, even a genius would take decades to master a thousand jutsu (Sandaime hokage is an example). The sharingan allows one to see how the chakra is being controlled by the enemy, and allows prediction of movements through even the smallest of muscle twitches (that's mentioned in the Naruto vs Sasuke fight, when Sasuke fully awakens his sharingan), so I'm sure it would make learning a jutsu much easier, if not possible on the spot.
And don't call this baseless speculation please, the manga practically implies that the Sharingan can copy basic jutsu on the spot.
Now, how this is relevant to the fight.
The Sharingan has a few weak points:
!. It can't be used to copy Kekkai Genkai, seems like you need special "blood" to combine multiple nature types in such a way, anyone else tries to use mokuton, they just get mud (I guess it's an internal combination of chakra)
2. It can only copy (and react to) movements of living things, well, to be more precise, it seems that's what it's trained to do. Sasuke couldn't avoid Narutos' chakra arms even though he was beating Naruto up a few minutes before (again, Naruto vs Sasuke fight, read it, if for nothing else, for nostalgia)
I think there was a third point, but I can't remember it.
Anyway, the second point applies to this fight. Since Konan fights mainly with her paper, if she were able to control it mid-flight, it could be difficult for Kakashi to dodge (based on the above points). I see this being overcome quite quickly by Kakashi, by observing Konans' movements and chakra, and the change in chakra in the paper itself (so yeah, it's not exactly the same as Narutos' chakra arms, they "had a mind of their own")
Secondly, the sea of exploding tags doesn't apply here (remember, no prep-time before the fight). I guess the best assumption is that they go into the fight with whatever they'd usually have on them for a mission (assuming they gear up the same way for different ranked missions). So Konan would still have a fair few explosive notes on her (that's a fair assumption), and this would give Kakashi a hard time, he'd probably gain some fairly serious wounds from her onslaught.
That being said, I think this match would be one of "Cat and mouse". Namely, Kakashi is the mouse, trying to figure out a counter strategy and Konan the Cat, bombarding him, while still being wary of a counterattack.
In my opinion, it would come down to Kakashis' intelligence in figuring out her weak point (namely, her real body), which I'm fairly confident in. He'd then use Kamui as a last resort/only decent battle plan against Konan, and with his current speed at Kamui (plus Konan not knowing what it is, since it's not a widespread fact), I'd say he's got this.
If only he had fire jutsu in the canon, then he'd be able to deal with the paper. Nonetheless, he'd be running mostly, much like his fight against Kakuzu, and then he'd be forced to use Kamui. But still, he's been a Jonin since he was 13, and was in ANBU (and survived, which doesn't seem to be common in the Narutoverse), so I'd say he can win this, even if it's by a paper thin margin (see what I did there XD), which is most likely.