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Superb! I liked every part of the tournament. It was flawless.
Good. I liked almost every part of the tournament.
Above average. There were more positives than negatives.
Below average. There were many bad moments although some good.
Bad. The tournament sucked on every level, not much was good about it.
Other (post reason)
There are already threads about Suigetsu/Neji or Neji/Kimmimaro in the tournament, just discuss about it there. I moved (most of) the posts in their respective thread (and deleted those which talk about the three threads at the same time).
Last edited by Gats; July 08, 2011 at 05:56 AM.
I think we're all one sided about this debate. How will Itachi beat Jiraiya's genjutsu? Itachi and Jiraya don't even need to be in the same room for Itachi to get caught in it.
If Jiraiya was caught in a genjutsu wouldn't ma and pa release him? Jiraiya is fast he kicked that pain before he could make a seal and strong is sage mode and if Sasuke was able to stall Amaterasu from hitting him how can Jiraiya not be fast enough to stall it for some time? Also Jiraya doing that quick needle jutsu is imo PURE evidence that he can shed his hair at will and regrow them at will. Jiraiya's hair is as strong as metal according to databook and the fact that it shredded Pain's summoning. So if Amaraterasu were to catch it it wouldn't all burn instantly, I'd say it would take a few seconds. ALSO Jiraiya can seal Amaterasu! So if the hair is burning too fast he can grow out his hair while using his scroll to seal it. If itachi attacks Ma and Pa will use that sonic attack they did on the summoning to push itachi back or Ma could use her tongue that is insanely fast btw to entertain Itachi. The way I see it it could easily go both ways.
It seems like it's a bit of a trend nowadays, but please stop calling each other trolls alright?
Thanks a lot!
Itachi realizing this may be a fight where his body will wear out and the disease will damage him further completely reducing his longevity, Or realizing that he may not come out alive cuz Jiraiya is very strong and might kill him or he wins but the disease kills him instead or sharingan goes totally blind and konoha nins kill him.
His mission was to sneak in and sneak out with Naruto and since Jiraiya was there, it was not worth the trouble. I dunno who'll win, kishi will have to write this one.
I'd like to thank who has added the winners of the most recent matchs. I've also noticed the new layout of the low tier's bracket.I hope he will do the same for the top tier.
He didn't kill Kakashi (he could have).
He didn't use Amaterasu on Kurenai or Asuma to kill them (he could have), and they could've escaped Konoha pretty easy after curbstomping Kurenai and Asuma.
He specifically stopped Kisame from fighting Kakashi seriously (honestly, Samehada is a rough match up for someone that runs out of chakra as easily as Part 1 Kakashi).
Madara calls him a hindrance (which I think means that in addition to not allowing Madara to simply attack Konoha, he also was slowing up progress as best as he could).
Doing something like the genjutsu to the woman shows me that he knew of a generic "weakness" of Jiraiya, and came up with that to act as if he was preventing Jiraiya from coming, knowing that Jiraiya would show up. Jiraiya is excellent and all, but I can't see him defeating the Totsuka Sword. In that specific situation, fighting Itachi while having to defend Naruto (and possibly Sasuke), while having Kisame there as back up...I think it's fairly obvious that Itachi and Kisame would win.
The dude simply wasn't trying to help Akatsuki move forward at that point.
In addition, if he was worried about info from Akatsuki leaking, it makes even MORE sense to take out Jiraiya, who he knew gave Kakashi his information. It's hard to go so far as to say that he knew Gai was coming to protect Kakashi and that that's why he gave Kisame the order to capture Kakashi when he did, but I can't honestly believe he was going all out on them or Jiraiya.
Edit: To be fair, I'm an Itachi fan, so maybe I'm just manipulating the information toward my conclusion, but I don't think it's illogical at all.
Last edited by UchihaHunter; July 08, 2011 at 03:42 PM.
No one is thinking in depth about Itachi's statement after figuring out that he was actually a good guy. When Jiraiya said he was bad at genjutsu, people assumed him to mean he was bad at casting genjutsu, yet rarely any will look at the reasons why Itachi said and did what he did.
Dunno when Kakashi learned about Amaterasu though, or even about Mangekyo (pre or post Itachi fight?).
He just said that he have never much of a genjutsu user. My interpretation in this one is that he knows a genjutsu but not much a user.. Afterall, he wasn't a genjutsu type ninja..
Oh, Japflap's translation is different.
According to cnet, Jiraiya said this: ".........But I'm honestly no good at genjutsu... // Ah, but the two of you..."
But Hisshouburaiken translate Jiraiya saying "...I've never been much of a genjutsu user..."
Anyway, from yours and others' logic who say Itachi was telling the truth, we can still assume Jiraiya wouldn't be able to break out of Itachi's genjutsu. He's not a genjutsu user or he isn't good at genjutsu, so he's less likely to be able to break out of Itachi's genjutsu.
If you look at Jiraiya's stats, you'll see he's probably the closest to a perfect score (if you remove his lowest score, he has nothing below 4.5; Kakashi has 2 outside of his lowest score, Orochimaru has 2, Tsunade 3, and even Itachi has 1). His low score, what keeps him from being the sole ninja at 36/40 or above, is Genjutsu, which is a 3. To put that into perspective, Naruto has a 2, with 0 known genjutsu. Tsunade, with no known genjutsu (IIRC), has a 3.5, and Shikamaru has a 3. He knew Frog Song would be an excellent trump card because even Pain knew that he didn't use much genjutsu. If Kakashi, with a 4 in Genjutsu, and the Sharingan couldn't escape Itachi's genjutsu, and Jiraiya is neither a Jinchuuriki nor a Sharingan user, I don't really see how he's escaping Itachi's genjutsu before Itachi gains quite the advantage. With ninja with the speed (both jutsu-wise and actual speed) of Itachi, even a second of incapacitation becomes a great advantage.
Unlike with Sasuke, where I think he stands a better chance outside of getting into Sage Mode to win, I think with Itachi, it's a lose-lose; it takes time to get into SM, and you're fighting against someone whose seals can't be read by Sharingan users in some cases. If he fights him outside of Sage Mode, he will definitely get caught in genjutsu and be defeated. In SM, it's reasonable to assume that Ma and Pa can break him out, but of course, Itachi's Tsukuyomi happens in an instant, right? So even for that bit of time during which he's definitely caught, he can get pretty messed up. It's a much more difficult fight than the one with Sasuke, imo
And i've stated this many a time as you know jdw.So for those that got it twisted.Stop trying to
be too clever with your arguments.Or i might add,Stop shiftingg the goalposts when you've lost
your argument..it reall is boring.
Originally Posted by kakashidad
Too much of Jiraiya's explination doesn't explain events we've seen in the manga that contradict his statement. Do you believe to any capacity at all that Jiraiya's chakra control is superior to Orochimaru's by a supremely vast amount? You would have to believe that he's not as susceptible as he is to Genjutsu, a ninja who based on those Databook stats you guys love so much, is superior to Jiraiya in that regard. And yet he's shit against Genjutsu.
How about the fact that Genjutsu and Ninjutsu are both completely different applications of chakra? Using jdw's analogy, Doton requires a ninja to use their chakra to manipulate and multiply the dirt around them into forms they wish. Genjutsu however is placing one's own chakra inside of another ninja, changing their chakra, then sending the signal throughout their body to alter their senses. One can be defeated with brute power. The other requires far more intricate defenses.
Being better than someone at doton is as simple as being more skilled at manipulating earth in most it's forms. Defeating a ninja's Doton is as simple as having access to a strong enough jutsu to destroy it. Escaping Genjutsu however requires a ninja to:
Recognize they are infact trapped (knowledge of Genjutsu and it's application would help here, which Jiraiya states he's no good with).
Have knowledge of how to escape Genjutsu (Jiraiya knows how, but has never done so, let alone against he series' greatest Genjutsu user)
Time to do so. (against Tsukiyomi? lmao)
Having greater chakra has nothing to do with it evidenced by what Itachi did to Naruto, so overpowering it the way he could a Doton isn't happening. Neither can he "Hit" his Genjutsu with another stronger jutsu to overwhelm it like he could a Doton. So that analogy pretty much putters out and dies before it leaves the ground.
In closing, Genjutsu is more like a poison than a Ninjutsu. You can defeat a Doton without being good at Doton yourself... but you CAN NOT defeat a poison without distinct knowledge of how it works and how to deactivate that poison. And the more powerful and intricate the poison, the more it'll take to actually break out of it (evidenced by how Naruto failed miserably more than once). And really: is there any reason to be as pompous as you guys have been lately? From the way you guys have been replying to people lately you'd think you've proven more points than you actually have.
Last edited by ninjabot; July 09, 2011 at 06:52 AM.
Even if you think that Jiraiya cannot escape Itachi's genjutsu, that is fine, but in the end you do not have to be good at actual genjutsu to escape genjutsu. There is no basis for it in the manga that I can recall. Also, although Jiraiya said he is not good at genjutsu itself, he never said he is not astute enough to realize he is in genjutsu, etc. I cannot recall the manga saying you have to be good at genjutsu to have the ability to know you are in one or that one is being cast.
Whether Jiraiya is better at chakra control than Oro, who knows, but if we assume he does not have more control for the sake of argument, Jiraiya might have similar control but more power, etc., which could lead to a different outcomes. Who knows if Oro was even terribly concerned with breaking out of genjutsu. He might have thought he can just survive his way through whatever. Jiraiya was looking at genjutsu as something he would need to reckon with, imo.
In the end, Jiraiya knows how to break out of genjutsu even if he is not good at casting it. He does not need to be good at it to break out. If someone presents manga proof that you must be good at genjutsu to know that you are in one or that one is being cast, or need to be good at genjutsu to escape, I will accept it.
Prove the three things:
- One must be good at genjutsu to recognize that genjutsu is being cast
- One must be good at genjutsu to recognize that one is in genjutsu
- One must be good at genjutsu to be able to break out of genjutsu
Last edited by jdw; July 09, 2011 at 07:47 AM.