Superb! I liked every part of the tournament. It was flawless.
Good. I liked almost every part of the tournament.
Above average. There were more positives than negatives.
Below average. There were many bad moments although some good.
Bad. The tournament sucked on every level, not much was good about it.
Other (post reason)
But, as we have seen, even Sannin and Genjutsu experts are no match for Itachi's genjutsu.
Sasuke, who perhaps is the greatest ninja in the manga when it comes to breaking and seeing through genjutsu was barely able to do so against his brother, and Itachi was taking it easy on him.
Fact of the matter is that Jiraiya has just about a good of a chance as anybody at breaking and seeing through Itachi's genjutsu. And by that I mean he's royally fucked.
Danzou who can cast the greatest genjutsu in the manga in Izanagi, who broke Sasuke's Tsyukiyomi was tricked by a genjutsu. A man who is better at casting genjutsu than Jiraiya, and who is better at breaking it than him, was eventually defeated thanks to a genjutsu, made by Sasuke, who is apprently lightyears behind Itachi in genjutsu use.
Saying that, what chance does Jiraiya have against the greatest genjutsu user in the manga?
Itachi can put Jiraiya into a genjutsu and Jiraiya would have no idea he was in one. It would literally take Itachi seconds to slit his throat with a kunai and kill him in that instance. If he's worried about Jiraiya noticing, he can keep layering genjutsu, or even hit him with Tsyukiyomi and end the fight if that's the case.
Despite the fact that Jiraiya can break genjutsu, we have never seen that he can, ESPECIALLY against genjutsu that Itachi is capable of making. So while you don't have to be "good" at using genjutsu to break it, nothing points to Jiraiya being "great" at breaking genjutsu either, which is what he'd need to be in order to break genjutsu from the greatest genjutsu user in the history of the manga.
The only ninja that have managed to recognize that a Genjutsu is being cast on them without knowing the opponent's repertoire or having an anti-genjutsu ability is:Originally Posted by jdw
Sakura: She's a genjutsu type. She realized what was happening with Kabuto's sleep Genjutsu because of it.
Shikamaru: If I remember correctly he was flatout told he was in a Genjutsu by Tayuya... and even if not, his melting arms were probably a dead giveaway...
Bee: And all it took was him being completely paralyzed before he decided "Hey! Something's fishy here..."
Yeah. Jiraiya can realize he's ihaving a Genjutsu cast on him. But by the time he does he's past the defending point now now thrown into the escaping point. A bad place to be for someone with no feats in escaping Genjutsu whatsoever.
Originally Posted by jdw
The only ninja that are not good at Genjutsu that have recognized they were in Genjutsu without someone telling them are ninja who have reached the point where it's too late to escape. Like Pein and Bee. Naruto was told beforehand to expect Genjutsu from Itachi, so he was prepared (fat lot of good it helped). And let's be serious: it doesn't take Genjutsu skill to know that you're body isn't moving, or you have faces growing out of your body. There are no instances in the manga where a ninja who sucks at using Genjutsu recognized they were in one without glaringly obvious changes (melted limbs, total paralysis). Thus, no reason at all to believe that Jiraiya will do any better. Infact, Danzou is skilled at using Genjutsu and Sasuke's Tsukiyomi was childplay, so he recognized it easily... and Sasuke STILL had time to kill him were it not for the paralysis jutsu. He did not however, manage to see through the stealthy, well-timed slight-of-hand type of Genjutsu Sasuke used on him.
Again, the only ninja not good at using Genjutsu that managed to escape a Genjutsu (after already being subdued by it)are:Originally Posted by jdw
Bee: Because his bijuu busted him out
Shikamaru: and he had the high intelligence that Jiraiya stated is needed to escape it, aswell as had to resort to breaking his finger to bust out... ASWELL as a 3 in Genjutsu, meaning atleast an average understanding of it
Naruto: thanks to there being a partner nearby that can disrupt his chakra for him.
Jiraiya has no bijuu, Jiraiya may potentially have no summons or clones nearby to break him out of Genjutsu, and Jiraiya is not as smart as Shikamaru. So, assuming Jiraiya can pull off herculean Genjutsu breaking feats when he doesn't have the tools to do so is pointlessly getting hopes up. Especially against a ninja with Genjutsu as powerful as Itachi's.
So in closing, it's possible that Jiraiya could recognize he's in a Genjutsu. It's possible he can tell when it's being cast on him. And it's possible he can break out of one.
Just not any that come from the most proficient and powerful Genjutsu user in the entire damn series. Not when ninja of his caliber more equipped to escape Genjutsu have failed so miserably. Jiraiya has none of tools to do so outside of knowing how to escape Genjutsu, which Naruto has proven counts for little against Itachi. Maybe he can escape a Genjutsu from C, or Sakura, or Tayuya. He might even stumble his way out of one cast by Sasuke (I'm being too damn generous). But there's literally no respectable argument for him being hit with Tsukiyomi or a paralysis Genjutsu from Itachi and doing anything other than falling.
Last edited by ninjabot; July 09, 2011 at 09:36 AM.
Itachi was a good guy and was prolly not trying to kill them, but the fact that he snuck into to konoha to try and take Naruto was proof that he didn't plan to hinder akatsuki that much. If he didn't want to take naruto(which would hinder akatsuki) he would have searched and reported "the jinchuriki was nowhere to be found. I think he must have left the village on a mission" or some nonsense like that not to distract Jiraiya and show up on Naruto's door step and ask Kisame to shave off his legs so Naruto won't run. The way we interprete the manga is different, which is cool.
I brought up different scenarios as to what would have happened if itachi would had fought Jiraiya. I didn't say Itachi would be blown away, I even said he might pull off a win but disease disease disease. He did 3 mangekyo sharingan jutsus in the span of about 1 hour(that's my guess, I'm assuming everything from his fight with Kakashi to then Sasuke and when he left was at least 1 hour). tsukyomi on kakashi and Sasuke and Amaterasu. And he turned his sharingan off. I'm saying that an opponent that might require him to pull out the all guns will wear him out(sickness/further blindness) not that he'll be blown out the water. We should not forget that he was still sick, when we saw itachi in a long extended fight the sickness took over. According to what I saw from that fight Sasuke didn't kill him, the sickness did.Jiraiya is not a genjutsu user, doesn't mean he doesn't know how to fight it.
We're all assuming that Jiraiya doesn't know anything about Itachi's jutsus, why would Itachi even know about sage mode? How would he even know Jiraiya is going into sage mode? If Jiraiya summons ma and pa and then begins to go into sage mode how will itachi prevent Jiraiya from going into sage mode? Jiraiya'll have his summons out along with ma and pa to keep Itachi busy, with ma's tongue itachi'll have no other choice but to be on the move, he might not get caught with it but he can't stand still giving Jiraiya enough time to enter sage mode. With Pa and Ma there Jiraiya does not need to stand still to receive senju chakra. Pa and Ma can sense chakra(I'll assume they can since they were able to sense Pain's presense in konoha) so they'll sense Jiraiya's chakra being disrupted and release him. According to what we saw from Sasuke in his fight with killer bee and Danzo Tsukyomi can last for a few seconds. I don't think(my opinion) that Jiraiya in sage mode can be caught in genjutsu cuz of sage chakra being in his head(just my opinion not manga fact) and if Jiraiya were to be in genjutsu I think like killerbee the genjutsu will stun him or slow down his(jiraiya) movements. when in sage mode. I know comparing itachi's genjutsu to Sasuke's own is not the best of things. But it's the same Jutsu so there must be some similarities. With that said I don't believe(my opinion again) Tsukyomi is quick, I think it's Itachi's ability to alter time in the genjutsu is what makes it fast. That's why Killer bee was still in the genjutsu after he blew Sasuke's chest away. The genjutsu didn't go off after 1sec
Also I think this is proof that an Amaterasu not focused on something will still burn the same way as focused Amaterasu if the object is flesh like. But for metal/much harder objects it'll take a while. Like it did for the Samurai's. Either that or it'll burn as fast as Kishi wants it to. So jiraiya's hair be it for a good 5-10 seconds or so, his hair will hold up.
Jiraiya is fast in sage mode if itachi has susano and that sword out Jiraiya will avoid it with his speed while Pa and Ma are getting the genjutsu ready. If itachi can keep susano out that long. Once again diseased Itachi.
Last edited by Infernal Stigma; July 09, 2011 at 09:46 AM.
Actually, my mistake:http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v24/c208/14.html
Shikamaru recognized a Genjutsu was being used the instant Tayuya started playing her flute... though it was too late by that point, and likely the instant he heard the melody he was screwed. Odd, but atleast that's proof that you don't have to be able to use Genjutsu to recognize it. He does however have high enough intelligence to discern it, which is one of the prerequisites. And it also doesn't do anything against the "you have to know how to use Genjutsu to be good at escaping it" though.
Another funny fact is that Jiraiya and Shikamaru have the same damn Genjutsu stat, but Shikamaru is smarter. And this is only a B-rank Genjutsu he's recognizing aswell. So he's smarter than Jiraiya and is reacting to a weaker Genjutsu than Tsukiyomi.
Last edited by ninjabot; July 09, 2011 at 09:54 AM.
I already knew that, but it's Itachi. Orochimaru even had difficulty against Itachi, and if Jiraiya tries to break out, Itachi will cut his hand off like with Orochimaru. Your databook says Orochimaru is better than Jiraiya in genjustu so thus, Jiraiya has no chance. Sad for Jiraiya but unless you can prove Jiraiya can break out of high level genjustu or even realize he's in one, Itachi has this department in the bag.
Originally Posted by jdw
I'm not inclined to believe that a 30% Itachi clone is more powerful than a Naruto who, at that point of the manga, had access to 3 tails worth of the Kyuubi's chakra. If power has anything to do with it at all Naruto would not have failed so hard when he has that level of power at his disposal. He would've simply went 3 tails and broke out. Which obviously didn't happen.
Originally Posted by jdw
That's the problem, you're not trying to convince yourself. You're trying to convince those of us not inclined to assume. It makes perfect sense to you that a ninja with no Genjutsu escaping feats is certainly capable of escaping Genjutsu because he says he knows how to do it. That doesn't stand up against a ninja that's more than just a Genjutus user. He's THE Genjutsu user. It's not useless in the debate based on the simple fact that there are multiple instances in the manga where ninja who were infact not good at Genjutsu only escaped thanks to outside help, or abilities that Jiraiya unfortunately does not have.
Lack of feats+lack of manga scans+Jiraiya's admittance to failing at Genjutsu+points in the manga where ninja with Genjutsu skill have escaped Genjutsu easier than ninja that havent+instances in the manga where ninja with skill at Genjutsu failed miserably against Genjutsu Itachi has used= lack of credibility for your argument. You've proven nothing more than reasonable (..to some people) doubt, and only against ninja weaker than Itachi in Genjutsu. But if you're content with this argument I don't think anyone's gonna beat a dead horse. Jiraiya's not winning a Genjutsu altercation with Itachi, that's just going to have to be accepted.
Last edited by jdw; July 09, 2011 at 10:42 AM. Reason: Dont feel like reopening that can of worms
On the contrary. People with more chakra (Naruto) better genjutsu skill (Kurenai and Orochimaru) and even genjutsu based defenses (Kakashi and Sasuke) have fallen to Itachi's genjutsu.
If we want to talk about chakra control, Jiraiya doesn't have as good as chakra control as Orochimaru. Genjutsu types, such as Sakura, are said to have great chakra control. Given Orochimaru's databook stat of 5 and Jiraiya's of 3 or 3.5 (can't remember) we can infer that Jiraiya's chakra control isn't as great as Orochimaru's who got ass raped by Itachi's genjutsu.
And while Jiraiya has shown no weakness to genjutsu, he hasn't shown any strength against it either. He simply knows how to break out of it, something all Jounin level ninja have shown capable of doing. Yet, just because you can do it, doesn't mean you will, espeically against the God of Genjutsu in Itachi.
I know, but from what the manga shows, Jiraiya might not be able to fight Itachi's genjutsu. There are two different translations to what Jiraiya said, and if one of them is true, it can be assumed JIraiya isn't that good at breaking out (which I don't believe) of genjutsu. If the other is true, then like taijutsu, Jiraiya doesn't like using genjutsu but is proficient at it, which would not be related to whether he could break out of it or not.
Oh. He wouldn't, but it takes time for Jiraiya to get into Sage MOde and if Itachi's fighting to kill, he would attack JIraiya. The doton seal would look suspicious, so Itachi would try to counter that. The summons can be genjutsu'd with SHaringan, as Sasuke proved, so ITachi could put the summons under genjutsu.Quote:
Itacih is the only one who can alter time. Sasuke can't, so it was easier for Killerbee to break free of Tsukuyomi. Just one second is enough to really screw Jiraiya, and even if Ma and Pa were attached, they may not be able to do much. It took Killerbee more than one second to break out of Sasuke's Tsukuyomi, it'd be the same for Jiraiya.
In this tourney, the disease won't kill Itachi, he'll only have the disease to the extent that he did without coughing or dying. Can Frog Song penetrate Susano'o's yata mirror thougH? It'd be chakra soundwave and if Yata MIrror can shield against chakra, then the soundwave might not penetrate, not to such degree anyway. Though if Itachi does get hit, I don't see him being able to reverse it.Quote:
I agree as well, there's no connection there. Jiraiya could be horrible at casting genjutsu but still be very good at breaking out of genjutsu, which has at least three ways.
Jiraiya did forget another way to break out of genjutsu though: pain. Pain worked 100% of the time. Sasuke, Shikamaru, and Kurenai can back me up. Although we saw Jiraiya's way more, there was at least one time where that failed. Wouldn't it be easier for Naruto to hurt himself out of genjutsu, especially since he's a masochist? :P
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c409/11.html Genjutsu is possible when the person(Itachi) controls the chakra in the persons head. Which would be physical and spiritual energy, but in sage mode, the person is not producing regular chakra cuz the balance has been changed. All that's there is sage chakra and since Itachi cannot control sage chakra, I don't believe he can put Jiraiya in an illusion while Jiraiya is in sage mode.
Also wouldn't absorbing natural energy(forming a new chakra) disrupt his own chakra? That would be a new(different) chakra flowing in Jiraiya. That looks to me like a way he can battle genjutsu. It would make sense since biju chakra is also a totally different chakra used to disrupt the persons regular chakra when it starts flowing and mixing in with that person. Manga states that a different source of chakra would release a genjutsu, should senjutsu be different?
Last edited by Infernal Stigma; July 09, 2011 at 01:05 PM.
I don't really think we can infer chakra control prowess from the genjutsu stat, because it is needed in ninjutsu as well.
Sasuke, Deirdara and Naruto on more than one occasions were all inside of Itachi's genjutsu as soon as they started fighting.
So fact of the matter is, Jiraiya wouldn't even have time to do what you are saying because he'd already be trapped. Itachi's fighting style is to overwhelm you with genjutsu so you can't do anything, thus he expends the least energy possible.
PS: If Kakashi, who is considered a genious, who also had the sharingan and realized he was in a genjutsu was unable to do a single thing against an Itachi who was arguably taking it easy and didn't want to kill...what chance would J-Man stand if that same man actually wanted to kill his opponent? Heck, even if Itachi was still taking it easy J-Man would still be easily left unconscious for weeks like Kakashi. Either way, Kurenai, a genjutsu specialist, was wtf-pwned by a REGULAR genjutsu...an all out Tsukuyomi from Itachi is too much for even J-Man...
Last edited by kelv015; July 09, 2011 at 04:08 PM.