Kakashi is a tricky ninja to fight, as shown by clone Itachi, Kakuzu, and Deva Path. He's skill enough to be able to switch himself with a clone at the drop of a hat and figure out his opponent's abilities. He's not gonna be an easy opponent to hit, and Jiraiya's not exactly a quick thinker. Kakashi's intelligence should enable him to come up with a plan to trap Jiraiya long enough to employ Kamui.
Itachi was more afraid of Jiraiya than Kakashi. Itachi defeated Kakashi easily, even with the mangekyou sharingan he still afraid to face Jiraiya because he know it will end in his death.
As regard to Kamui, i'm saying Kakashi would defeat every ninja will have seen in the manga so far, expect Pein and Madara, if he use it realistically (without manga-plot limit). If he use it like i will use it, or like how you would use it, or any sensible human would use it, Kakashi would be fucking invincible. But that isn't the case. When was the last time Kakashi used Kamui offensively? Against Deidera, the first time we saw him use it. He only use it defensively now. Not only that, he doesn't use it until it's basically the last minute. Kakuzu was about to rip his heart out and the dude still didn't use it. It wasn't until he was second away from death before he use it against Pein, and he use it defensively. Yes, this are manga-plot limits that Kishi has employed to prevent Kakashi from been overpower. But that is what Kakashi character is as regard to the manga. So to say he would just wipe out the Kamui straight away or close to the beginning of the fight is not factual base on his usage of it in the manga so far.
Manga fact is that Kakashi wouldn't use it until the last minute, and in all likelihood to defend himself against certain death rather than to straight up attack the opponent. That is what Kakashi usage of the jutsu is and that is why mangawise i don't see him defeating Jiraiya or a lot of the upper tier ninjas. Kishi has build this over carefulness into Kakashi usage of Kamui that basically hinder him from been as great of a ninja as he could be. And there is no reason for me to argue that this over carefulness wouldn't be in effect in this tourney.
If this were Kakashi vs Sasuke or Kakashi vs Itachi most of the people making this argument for Kamui and the conceptual/realistic(devoid of manga plot) invincibility of it simply wouldn't, they would be ignorant to that argument. Shoot, a lot of them weren't even making that argument a couple weeks ago in Konan vs Kakashi thread or Kakashi vs Kitsuchi (or in any other Kakashi vs someone thread we had). Imo, most of this argument are from Sasuke fanboys who are mad that Jiraiya defeat Sasuke. The complete underestimation and ignorance of how strong of a ninja Jiraiya was is due to this. You can put Konohamaru in front of Jiraiya right now, and i wouldn't be surprise if this people think he would defeat Jiraiya. Shoot, you can put Kurenai in front of Jiraiya and they would argue that he would lose, after all saying you are not good at genjutsu means you are incapable of breaking out of it.
If we are to assume that Kakashi would use Kamui like it can and should be use, i'm willing to give this whole tournament to him.
Last edited by KnuckleheadedNinja; July 15, 2011 at 02:27 AM.
Lemme just say I voted for Jman in the Sasuke fight...
But I'm voting for Kakashi in this fight...
IMHO Kumai > Ameratsu...
Kakashi's counter for Dark Swamp - Any of the Doton techs he's used in the series so far... he loves fighting in the ground...
In the Sasuke fight, Dark Swamp was the counter for Sussanno'o
Needle Hair, Destroyed by Kumai...
Even if this had been Sasuke vs Kakashi, I'd vote Kakashi... Kumai is a definite game changer...
And mangawise, Kakashi has been shown to be comparable to Sage Mode Jiraiya, so Kakashi won't have any major trouble fighting Jiraiya in the beginning of the fight while he's still in base mode. Also, Kamui was brought up in both the fight with Kitsuchi and Konan. This is far from the first time it's appeared.
didn't deidra manage to survive a kamui?
Don't complain when Kakashi screws up and misses with Kamui. When Jiraiya sees Kamui occurring , he can turn himself flat, and Kakashi will end up with a miss. Jiraiya, feeling bad for the powerful but low-stamina Kakashi, will take full advantage and turn Kakashi into a toad instead of killing him.
You know that's the second time you posted that picture at an attempt to get under the skin of Kakashi's supporters, right (or brought up such a dumb conclusion, one or the other)? You'll find no one surprised at Kakashi losing after what happened to Sasuke, so you can stop trying so hard to piss people off.
Nevermind that the Kakashi that Jiraiya tries to turn into a toad could be a KB lining him up for a Kamui or Raikiri. Nevermind that the Kakashi he tries to touch to turn into a toad could be a Raiton Bunshin, paralyzing him and guaranteeing a Raikiri or Kamui the instant he touches it. Nevermind that he could be being hypnotized into a approaching the real Kakashi with a close ranged attack so he can dodge it thanks to being able to predict his movements.
Yeah, it's as easy as simply touching a ninja with equal speed as him AND a Sharingan. You're not wanking at all.
---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------
Originally Posted by DEATHBOTT
The most noobish, hardest to aim version, yes. He didn't dodge the instantaneous one that Kakashi used against Sasuke or Pein. If it took him a million years to pull off against Jiraiya like it did against Deidara then yeah, dodging it would be alot easier. But since it's been perfected to the point that it can block one of the fastest attacks we've seen in the manga (and Kakashi can predict his enemy's movements, guiding his Kamui into the correct attack position), hitting a wouldn't be hard.
Last edited by ninjabot; July 15, 2011 at 06:38 AM.
Piss people off, its a joke. Lighten up. Don't take out your anger over Sasuke's early exit on me. Make better arguments and take defeat gracefully. If someone posts a picture of Jiraiya without a head due to Kamui it is all in good fun. Also, if Jiraiya loses here I'd be ok with it anyway. It is a homemade tournament, not the actual manga.
As for getting touched by Jiraiya, it is certainly possible. Even Sasuke was touched by plenty of shinobi who did not match him in speed (Danzou, Deidara, etc), and this was while he had sharingan. It may take trickery, etc, but it certainly cannot be ruled out. Kakashi is a great shinobi but he is definitely not standing above everyone like he is untouchable. It might be hard, but not impossible. If he misses a kamui, anyone can lay hands on him.
I find it funny how half of the posts that mentions Kakashi winning with Kamui won't even be here if he is fighting Sasuke. I mean I would just like to ask those that believe in the whole one hit deal how Kakashi vs Sasuke will end?
That being said, Kamui can't be used to kill people. It simply takes too long for Kakashi to suck something apart or the whole thing when said thing/person is moving about. The reason why Kamui worked so well as a defensive justu was because all Kakashi have to do is open a hole and let the attack go through it. Which is totally different from ripping something apart or sucking it in entirely. That being said, Kakashi puts up a great fight but I would say Jiraiya pulls out a win at the end. The difference in stamina is just too obvious. Kakashi almost tripped and fell after using one Kamui for goodness sake. One miss with Kamui or a forced Kamui would pretty much = a very disadvantaged Kakashi.
It is an argument. I am not the decider for all votes, nor the person appointed with selecting a champion. If people, having seen Kakashi, think he can one-shot the shinobi world, he will win. I don't happen to think that Kakashi can Kamui-snipe people the way it is being spoken of here. Even though there is a joke in my post, there is also the argument for a useful jutsu. If Kakashi is firing off a Kamui, Jiraiya can make himself flat to a surface, which can result in a miss with Kamui, imo. If Sasuke would have beaten Jiraiya, I would have accepted it because that's the way voting goes. Also because Sasuke is capable of defeating Jiraiya. I think they are like 50/50, but if someone is going to get 51%, I think it would be J-man.
If you think a race is "rigged against you" (not that it actually is, but just your personal belief) you don't even have to participate. At the starting line, before the flag is waved or whatever, take your car back to pit row and watch the race or something else altogether.
Kamui haven't shown the speed to suck someone in or someone apart without them being able to do something so I don't see why it's so "unavoidable". All of his improvement in speed and accuracy is partly due to the fact that objects were moving towards Kamui. If he was ever so good at Kamui as you all mention, Deva Realm and Sasuke wouldn't be in the manga anymore. And no, I don't think it's 100% due to plot reasons that they survived as well.
Last edited by Shaunlim; July 15, 2011 at 07:23 AM.
Originally Posted by jdw
No, not rigged. Just that the race in itself isn't set up in a way that a believable winner would win. You vote on who would win the race rather than watching the race unfurl and crowning the genuinely better car as the winner. The car's speed doesn't matter, nor does the driver's ability. Just the car you want to win. And there's always the benefit of the doubt. The idea that someone wouldn't take the easy way out. That they'd produce a believable argument in favor of their character. And if not, I still get to expose the fallacies as they present themselves (which is the only reason I ignored the other threads and got back into the tournament when Jiraiya reared his head again).
And I'm not saying that Sasuke as superior to Jiraiya by an entire ninja rank or anything. I'm simply saying he's decidedly superior. Decidedly. Just better. He hits harder, he has more guaranteed attacks that could connect, and there's literally nothing Jiraiya could do that Sasuke does not have an answer for. Nothing at all. Nothing. Not one thing. Not a one. By any measure. At all.
They're not equals by the literal sense. Hell, I'm not sure they're equals by any sense. But it didn't matter. Either way, this is off topic. I don't even think Kakashi would win against Jiraiya, I just hate that people are putting Jiraiya higher on the S rank ninja list than he deserves to be. Kakashi and Jiraiya are both at the very bottom of that list so the fight between them both would be closer than people are giving Kakashi credit for.
---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 PM ----------
Originally Posted by Shaunlim
See? I just listed a handful. This isn't about providing proof, it's about acknowledging the proof that's been displayed already. I listed atleast 3 counters for Itachi and Sasuke, aswell as more counters for higher ranked ninja in the series. And Susanoo can defend against it because it can be activated faster than Kamui can come into fruition, making Kakashi focus his eyesight on the Susanoo rather than Sasuke, because he'd be behind the skeleton instead. And Sasuke's Amaterasu hits faster than Kamui does, simply look at what level of speed it takes to avoid it. And no, it's not the same as Jiraiya using Endan. To use Endan Jiraiya has to:
Breath. Aim and fire.
To use Amaterasu you have to:
LOOK AT THE OPPONENT. Big difference. MS needs to be activated for both Kamui and Amaterasu. The difference being Sasuke can keep his active the whole fight nearly and just drop an Amaterasu the instant Kakashi's pupil dialates. Jiraiya has no such option. He's always gotta perform hanseals for Endan. Sasuke can drop an Amaterasu at a moment's notice with no other prep time other than looking right at Kakashi. Thus, he hits faster than Jiraiya can.
Originally Posted by Shaunlim
It was fast enough to bock an attack stated twice to be "too fast" (Susanoo's arrows). This was an attack too fast for one of the fastest ninja (Kakashi) to dodge. Also, both of these ninja had Sharingan, so their dodging prowess was elite and they still couldn't avoid the attack. Kamui has to have divine speed for such a feat. Though admittedly, Danzou likely wasn't looking through his Sharingan arm... but he still acknowledged the speed.
Also, it is due to plot reasons. Kakashi felt the need to hold back because of his low stamina and the fact that both ninja were capable of incredibly powerful jutsu. His Kamui had to be saved for the right moment. Sasuke was exhausted, so finishing him quick was the plan. God Realm however had him pinned, and he had tried most of his strongest attacks already, so Kamui was his last resort. And remember, in this tournament he's not obligated to fight the way Kishi makes him. Even if he doesn't fight that way in the manga he can fight that way in this tournament.
I don't vote here. I see them on par now <before Kamui it was a given for me Ji-man is just a more powerful fighter overall>: Kakashi at some point would Kamui'd Jiraiya and its the end, and Ji-man would defeat Kakashi if he would not use Kamui from the start, imo.
I think Knuckleheadedninja was right, If Kakashi can use Kamui as a one-hit kill like that, then by all means he should win the tournament. All the objects that he's warped were all moving in a predictable direction, so naturally they'd be easier to warp even if the are moving fast. I can see Jiraiya getting caught if he tries a frontal attack, but, I personally think he'd attack more from blind-spots.
Last edited by Naruffy; July 15, 2011 at 08:15 AM.