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I was reading the first few chapters again and something of interest struck me. Is what Ginjo and Tsuki doing really that bad. If you compare it to what Ishida did I would say that Ishida's motives come off as more evil then Tsuki/Ginjo
All Tsuki/Ginjo have truly done that we know of, is train Ichigo in Fullbring only to absorb it and take control of all his friends memories so that they believe Tsuki to be their friend, excluding Ishida. While sure there is psychological damage to be had overall the only ones to truly be hurt through this whole instance is Ishida and Ichigo. None of Ichigo's other friends have been harmed in any way.
Meanwhile, with Ishida's reckless challenge to see who can kill the most hollows he put all of Ichigo's friends in life threatening situations. You can't justify that oh it allowed them to unlock their hidden powers because it wasn't Ishida's objective to help random humans gain power, it was to prove that Quincy are better hollow exterminators then Shinigami. Tatsuki almost died, karin was put in danger, Chizuru was put under the control of a hollow.
Heck this scene alone, look how many humans Ishida put into a deadly situation cause of his hatred http://www.mangareader.net/94-495-17...hapter-41.html
Meanwhile even when Tsuki and Ginjo were fighting one another we get this scene.
Tsuki shows concern about the possibility of people in the building and Ginjo responds with how he's careful not to aim for building with people inside them. If Tsuki was truly evil he would be certain to aim for building where people are to prevent Ginjo from using his abilities yet they fought in a more fun freestyle to imitate the amount of danger going on to encourage Ichigo to continue his training. The main point of Tsuki's interference was to encourage Ichigo to train harder, while at first it appeared odd how he just happened to appear he did it to speed up the training.
If you look at both situations I would say what Tsuki/Ginjo have done is honestly no big deal and I believe that the "Dead" shinigami is a lie. While it might look worse cause of the psychological trauma but other then that they really haven't done anything to truly be noted as evil, if you compare the two, Ishida had a lot more of an evil aura to him then they do since they haven't really shown anything of themselves to really suggest that they are truly evil.
-not sure how I didn't realize I said Ginko this isn't persona 2 lol-
It's arguable, sure.
One can infer that Gintsuki didn't have to do any of what they did, but Ginjou wanted to because it was more entertaining.
Also, none of Ichigo's friends were hurt only because that was part of the plan. If Gintsuki had killed all of Ichigo's friends, Ichigo wouldn't have come to trust the Fullbringers, he wouldn't have trained to accomplish his Fullbring, and Ginjou wouldn't have been able to take it from him for whatever reason. Their goal isn't exactly clear yet, but Gintsuki clearly don't care who they cut down or mentally rape to get what they want.
Maybe that's not evil, but it's kind of a big deal, yeah.
Since we know Ishida fully as a character, we know he isn't actually evil. (or is he? O_O)
However, what he did way back then was indeed pretty careless. But we know his reason for it. Not to say that really justifies anything. But it's there.
Last edited by Exodi; August 13, 2011 at 06:42 PM.
well evil or not...they certainly made an enemy out of Ichigo and that makes them villains (who are about to get their @$$es handed to them IMO)
and if after they stole Ichigo's fullbring the revealed their true purpose to be something unselfish, or to better fight hollows, only then would I agree that they aren't really evil. The fact that they haven't revealed why they did what they're doing means it's a bad reason.
@Exodi, nah ishidia isn't evil though now that I think about it, at first what Chad said about him I found amusing cause he actually seems to be the weakest fighter of the group excluding orihime. http://www.mangareader.net/94-523-17...hapter-69.html
Ishida's complexity makes him weak, ina sense I think I can understand that his malice towards the shinigami is so strong he did relinquish his powers just like when Ichigo used the FGT just to "eliminate" one captain which ended up being futile. But ya Ishida isn't evil he's just holding a grudge towards those that destroyed his clan which is udnerstandable, however his motives were very rash and childish causing potential harm to many people. On the otherhand Gin/Tsuki only included people Ichigo knew and made sure not to harm anyone else.
While sure they could still be evil it just feels like this whole arc has been trying to parallel things. Like I didn't think about it before but the matchup with Ginjo/Ichigo vs everyone else made complete sense. Since Ichigo knew what Tsuki's powers were and there didn't seem to be anything else to hide, it was best for Ichigo to take him down. While sure he may have an idea of the other fullbrings, since Ginjo has the most knowledge of his allies he can take them down/knock them out with ease if he wanted to. While Ginjo showed a calm coolheaded way of fighting even though it was against his friends, Ichigo lost his focus and only became enraged by Tsuki which also caused him to be more weary of how he attacked.
The arc feels like it has a lot of parallels to it though I just think before peopel assume that Ginjo/Tsuki are evil I think it's simple enough to consider how ishida appeared at first. His one action was a lot worse then anything Ginjo/Tsuki have done yet while sure one could say they didn't kill any of his friends, I'm pretty sure the death of a friend would've made his resolve stronger and perhaps opened up an even stronger force inside Ichigo. I believe the death of a friend has the same impact as if he were to die.
It's still hard to call them villains though cause sure while Ginjo absorbed his fullbring why did they have such a longwinded method of obtaining it. They know who isshin and Urahara are so why would they take such a risk as to stretch out the potential of them getting caught by those to if they really wanted Ichigo's power. It just feels like the next chapter Urahara is gonna step up and tell Ichigo to stop being rash and to think about the whole situation he's been put in. Ichigo shoudl be clearly aware of how powerful Ginjo/Tsuki are as well as the lack of everyone else who was involved in the fight. It's not like Ginjo defeated any of his opponents, he stopped midway to take the blade for Ichigo. It seems like at that time Tsuki may have waved everyone to pull back so they could finish their job, if they had really been aiming for Ichigo with such an evil intent then everyone shoud've surrounded Ichigo and Orhime should've said something to the effect of "Ichigo please stand down I can't stand this senseless fight anymore"
However no one else showed up since Ginjo came back and that in itself is weird, Tsuki/Ginjo didn't even think twice about how nothing happened and they were ready to leave, if there was such a concern I'm sure they would've brought up the odd air of everyone missing. With the plan they set in motion I"m pretty sure they wouldn't miss such a simple detail as everyone else missing from the fight and it truly is a simple oversight if you are caught in the heat of battle and realizing you've just been betrayed by your last ally as you pondered if your other ally was against you to.
For me I just can't see them deserving their butts kicked unless they reveal some truly evil intent as to why they took Ichigo's Fullbring, as the scenario stands now it just seems to play out as another one of Urahara's games to teach Ichigo. Soon enough though at least we'll know what happens, just a few more days to go, I really just want to see those next few pages.
Though on a last note, http://www.mangareader.net/bleach/459/8
"I want to regain my strength but I couldn't find a single path" I find this hard to believe that it would appear he had regrets of losing his powers yet he didn't go to Urahara about it for this whole time. When Ichigo first lost his powers to the hand of byakuya Urahara helped him regain his powers, I"m sure if Ichigo was truly motivated to regain his powers he would've desperately asked Urahara if there was any way that he would be able to have the power to protect his comrades again.
"At long last I found a way" I find it hard that after 17 months this was the only lead he had to obtain his powers, it seemed even before Ginjo said anything to him he had doubts about his trust towards Urahara even though he was the one that aided him in taking down Aizen along with the help of his father Isshin.
But ya to me some things just seem odd, while sure you can have a game out of it, if there objective was truly of the evil path I"m sure they wouldn't have piddled as much time as they did if they didn't want to get caught by others.