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Pariston The Rat
I want to clearify some points.
Netero couldn't do whatever he wanted to only because he was an extraordinary Chairman. It's about politics and that means there're rules and people higher in ranking than Netero if they group up and vote.
But Netero has been "allowed" more due to his extreme power.
Power in terms of brute strength and experience as well as political power and intelligence, he's also known for lying and that is an important qualification to be a politican.*g*
He took Morau and Novu with him because he knew he could count on them.
But I highly doubt that Netero would've been able to decide how to handle the Chimera Ants on his own without loosing the faith of most peoples/hunters, because as we already stated several times: The Rat would've made use of the seemingly "selfish" Netero who had gone against the Association's decision and that would've ultimately resulted in Rat's victory.
Surely, if Netero truly wanted to take other hunters and other methodes, than he would've simply done so without caring for the election or his disposal.
That would've been extremely dumb and shortsighted, though. And he knew that, of course.
But he decided to handle it under the conditions given, thus keeping the people's trust and he didn't fell into Rat's trap.
It's not so hard to understand, really guys.
Netero was happy like a Child in a Candyshop as he heard that the Enemys may be stronger than him.
Did you forget what he said during his fight with Meruem?
All he wished for was a fight against an opponent who's strong enough to force him to go all out.
And if he took the whole Zodiac and other Hunters with him, than he wouldn't have been able to experience this fight the way he had.
He was well aware that it could be the last time wearing his battle-suit, in the same chapter he said his blood is boiling from excitement.
So we could say he was selfish, but only because he wanted his dream/wish to come true.
This way he ensured to keep in Charge of the Election's conditions, thus giving the Rat a harder time, elsewise the Rat would be Chairman right now, that's what I think.
The Rat would've loved it if Netero had made a mistake during the chimera ant arc, but Netero found a way to settle things anyway and this surely pissed off the Rat.
It's really like Itachi died and Tobi makes a move. Netero's death literally unleashed the Rat.
The King's dream as well as Komugi's dream got fulfilled, Kaito got seemingly reborn plus Gon&Killuah are heroes and became extremely strong during this arc. Gin's confident is also a good sign for Gon to be healed soon. If Gon keeps his strength from his pre-mature state or if he has to start from 0 again is yet to come.
So I don't know how you feel about it, but I'm glad the Chimera Ant Arc went the way it did.
As for Killuah finding help for Gon... I think that Killuah will indeed find the necessary help.
He has got a very rich family and he has got many black market contacts, maybe that's how he acquires help.
I also think that Togashi will pull an Obama. Maybe a honest and fair person from a minority group will be the next chairman. It's just a funny thought I had, but I wouldn't say it's impossible, too. lol
Last edited by ~Andrew~; October 07, 2011 at 03:00 AM.
Think you guys are forgetting the huge disparity between the powers of Netero and the King. The difference in power is similar to that of a human (the King) vs a fly (Netero) (Yes, look at the irony~). The fly can attack all it wants but it won't hurt the human, while the fly will constantly dodge the human's attack until the human finally connects in a perfect strike, and dealing a single fatal blow.
The King is THAT much more powerful than Netero, thus even if the Zodiacs or more "powerful hunters" join Netero, the Hunters would not win, PERIOD.
So, it could be assumed that having more companions join in the fight may actually hinder what Netero would use as a last resort (the rose bomb). We've seen how the fight involving Knuckle and the Royal Guard ended and how companions in a fight become a liability. So it makes sense that Netero would fight the King alone, and if the most powerful Hunter cannot beat the King, then he would sacrifice himself and only himself. Makes sense.
Also, i refuse to believe that the Zodiacs would not know about Netero's death. I mean these guys are at least 2-star Hunters here, and they did not get that rank by being mis-informed about anything. Hunters rely not only on pure strength, but by information gathering as well, to say that they would not know anything about what happened is ridiculous.
That's something you absolutely can't know. And it's not that relevant, too.
Everyone and their mother knows that the King is a being unrivaled, but you seem to know little about HxH and Togashi when you're predicting the outcome of "what-if"-battles only depending on their powerlevel.
Morau said it just perfectly:
"In a battle between Nen-users, from the moment you think about the "chance of winning" you have already made a mistake"
"Not knowing your opponent's abilities is normal."
"Even a moment's hesitation or doubt can lead to a critical hit that can turn the tables in an instant."
"The amount of Aura that can be seen, wether it's a lot or a little, cannot even be used as a measuring stick."
"You can never be certain of any outcome. That is a battle involving Nen." - Morau
Pitou feared for Gon's Fangs to reach the King's throat. Back then I thought of it as an metaphor and that Pitou overestimated Gon, but Pitou (and I. lol) realized that he was damn right about his fear for the King's throat.
"This one's fangs really would have reached the King!!"
Togashi mentioned several times (through his manga and by himself) that it's mainy about abilities and experience and not for mere power and brutestrength.
Also, Morau fought against Yupi and Pufu. Knuckle and Co nearly beat Yupi and Morau fought a "mental"-fight against Pufu and could even keep up due to his resolution.
Strategies, experience, personal abilities and Nen control are the things that are deciding the outcome of a battle.
The one Guy from the Genai Ryodan who increases the power of his punch by only swinging his arm could punch the royal guardians and the king to a pulp if the situation is given. He swings his arm a thousand times and then punches and that's it. I'm not saying that he's stronger than the King or the Guards, but I wanted to make it clear what Nen fights are about.
Maybe there is one with an ability that could Kill the King or make him his slave, one of the squad commanders could even steal his enemy's ability when the enemy owe's him a favor (The Lion Ant).
There are several ways to defeat more powerful opponent's HxH showed us plenty examples.
And I'm pretty fu**ing sure that the Zodiacs have some formidable abilities and in Gin's case I'm even sure that he has unrivaled brute strength, too. Gon has limitless potential regarding his Aura, that was stated several times now. Remember the fight against Reizer/Lazer or when Morau wanted Gon to attack him with all he's got, then Gon thought of Morau as Kaito's murder and Gon's Aura kept increasing to an amount where Knuckle had to stop him and Morau was full of sweat. lol
Abilities and Nen-Controll (plus experience) over Brute Strength.
Think you're kinda missing the point of my post of why the Zodiac didn't show up in the Chimera Arc, but I'll play along.
As far as the strategies, experience, personal abilities go, who else will have the most of all those things other than Netero? The guy trained for all his life, considered as the best nen-user in the world, and had ample time to strategize on how to beat the King. Not only did Netero's strategy go as planned but had no efffect, Netero's strongest ability and attack barely hurt the king, and the king defeated Netero with brute strength alone, without any "special technique".
And really? you really think Phinks' "Ripper Cyclotron" is more powerful than Netero's abilities? I mean, seriously? it just feels like you're making an argument for argument's sake.
So please, stop insulting me that I know nothing about "HXH and Togashi" while patting yourself on the back as the authoritarian of everything "Hxh and Togashi".
I wasn't insulting you at all.
"And really? you really think Phinks' "Ripper Cyclotron" is more powerful than Netero's abilities? I mean, seriously? it just feels like you're making an argument for argument's sake."
I never said that.
What I wrote was mainly about the fact that no one can predict the outcome of a battle before it happens, so why should I seriously say that Phinks is stronger than Netero or vice versa?
Everything depends on the battlestituation, abilities, experience and so on.
Netero could lose against weaker enemys if the conditions are met, why not? It's only very very unlikely to happen.
I only said that HxH isn't only about power but about abilities, experience and the battlesituation itself.
And that's what I already said in my last posting.
I won't repeat myself, because there is nothing more to it.
I won't discuss with you unless you're getting less offensive.
I don't even know your problem, it's my opinion and coming up with Novu's labil mind at this point is pretty funny.
Saying that I'm patting myself on the back is funnier, though.
The outcome of a battle involving nen and abilities can rarely be 100% predicted.
I stick with Togashi's/Morau's words.
Last edited by ~Andrew~; October 07, 2011 at 07:48 AM.
The whole point of the Ant arc is the strategy and tactics is still meaningless in the face of absolute power, unless you count Rose as a strategy. In that case anybody can defeat anybody else if they strap on a powerful enough bomb.
Gon's raw power is higher than a Royal. Pitou is the only one who saw the potential. That has absolutely nothing to do with potential or tactics. Gon always had the potential to become the strongest Hunter in the world and defeat Royal in a straight up fight. Again, he's the only person described as a 'threat to the King' and the only thing he did was reach his prime way earlier than he should have.
In reaction to Morel's blurb about no sure thing in aura combat, Killua said that 1% chance to win does not constitute as a fair chance to win. After Meryem was reborn, he showed his aura and asked his Royals do they think there is even a miniuscule chance they think he might lose and the Royals realized they were wrong. This also implies that before he was reborn, there might be some really infinitismal chance he could lose to a regular Hunter. Again, you can't just go and fight a battle for the survival of humanity because you think there was a 0.01% you could beat the King if the stars happened to align the right way. You don't get author bailouts in HXH unlike most mangas.
Strategy only appeared to work against Yupi because he was given an assignment of 'guard the throne room', therefore he cannot chase Knuckles down and finish him, until he reassessed his priorities. Not to mention he should've been able to kill Knuckles if not for Meleoron, who has an ability nobody can possibly see through the first time. I don't care how smart or experienced you are, you can't just figure out what Meleoron's ability does without seeing it in action multiple times.
---------- Post added at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 AM ----------
Now I think Gin knows the truth, but he's obviously someone who will not show his emotions. I see no way the more emotional members of Zodiac can possibly not break into a fist fight given the way Pariston repeatedly blames Netero for various problems if they knew Netero was dead.
---------- Post added at 01:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:15 AM ----------
As a point of reference, Pufu estimated there was a 10% chance that Morel could've beaten him. He certainly appears the most capable of fighting with brains to make up for lack of power, so we'll assume this estimate has to be correct.
Now you say 10% chance doesn't sound too bad given the disparity in raw power. Morel wasn't even at full strength, right? Except Pufu got into this situation because he started the fight drooling about how he failed his King for a whole four seconds (look at the clock of when he arrived at the throne room and when Morel trapped him). When Netero fought Pitou in midair, the fight was measured in 0.1s increments. Kurapika estimatd he needs about 0.5s to get his attack off, and says he needed Gon to distract the Spiders for at least one second so he can get his attack off.
One second, let alone four, is an eternity in HXH. So yes there is a chance someone like Morel could've beaten Pufu if you start out the fight assuming the enem is going to drool for four seconds. Of course Meryem could have wiped out the entire attack force if they started out the fight drooling for four seconds too. You cannot predict the outcome of a battle but you can't just assume your enemy is going to do something inexplicably stupid. Morel needed four seconds to trap Pufu. Even if someone is twice as strong as him and can do the same thing in half the time, you're talking about individuals whose reaction time is 0.1s or less.
Last edited by Phantron; October 07, 2011 at 11:01 AM.
@ Phantron: you're wrong. I think one thing Gon or Netero have proven is that strategy and circunstances ARE superior to brute force.
Gon is a child, there was no way he could ever be stronger than a mutant Ant that learns Nen at an exponential speed and was pretty dangerous even to most experienced hunters. He had no better skills in Nen, he had no higher strength. What he did was overcome Pitou with his resolution and sacrifice, not really raw power. If Pitou had the guts to go as far as Gon did, the outcome would've never been this one. It was the circunstances that drove Gon into an impossible decision that changed the outcome of that battle. Had Pitou never killed a person loved by Gon, he would never have lost. So, being strong didn't matter at all over there.
Same with Meryem and Netero. Meryem would never go as far as self-sacrifice to take Netero. The fact he was stronger acted against Meryem, as his confidence also led him to believe he wasn't in danger if he win that fight. The guards saying he wasn't defeatable also worked against him, as that in itself opened up his guard to the unknown. Of course Netero used a mass destruction weapon, but Meryem was entitled to the same. He could have been ready to use whatever artifact one can fathom, but he never prepared himself. Unfair? Sure! But this isn't the Olympics, this is war, and in war it isn't about the stronger, faster, better or smarter, but how you play everything.
These two examples show me how weaker guys can still defeat stronger foes even when the deal IS based a lot on power-levels. Even in this situation, power level still isn't absolute and submits to circunstanciality.
Last edited by Jack Van Burace; October 07, 2011 at 03:38 PM.
And I'm not aware of using a nuclear bomb counts as superior strategy. So if on the next election, Pariston didn't show up but one of his lackey detonated a Rose and killed everyone that was present, that'd be 'great strategy' too? The Rose isn't even something you can prepare against. You can simply launch a human catapult strapped on a Rose to the Hunter's HQ. Nobody can stop that and it will kill anybody at the HQ no matter how many powerful users were gathered there. It's like saying if someone played Komug in a game of Gungi, and pulled out a gun and shoot her when it's obvious you're losing, that'd mean you defeated Komugi in a field where her dominance is perhaps far greater than any power level difference in HXH.
Also, the fact of the matter is that gon is ultimately 11. He has a superb growth rate but he is by no means "strong" now. The reason there are references to his potential is because they are things which have yet to be realized. Remember when gon fought knuckle? Gon was fodder, he could not even defend himself. Gon's merit is that he has the nen of a mid level hunter at age 11 however if he were to go up against even a mid level hunter with more experienced (whose moves could not be predicted by an awkward nen flow for instance) he would get his ass handed to him.
Well, the rose was obviously not a "nen battle" strategy but without a shred of a doubt it was a strategy. Nuking stuff is a great strategy in a war if it is viable. Obviously it is not as pretty as specifically moving to an advantageous position or leading someone into some sort of trap but ultimately the rose was a very useful strategy. It was basically full proof once the king was separated from the rest. The king was doomed from the moment he started the fight against netero. If he lost the fight against netero he would have obviously died. If he won the fight then he still died. He was cornered into a position where the only outcome for him was death (of course he could have ran away but that was not the issue here).
Gon in adult form is what he would have been had he trained continously for tens of years. Given his insane potential there's no reason to believe had he decided to train like that, he can become the most powerful Hunter in the world. Whether he can ever realize that potential is not clear (he actually doesn't care about training), but that potential exists. The other guys don't have that kind of potential. Knuckle can train the rest of his life and he's unlikely to even become more powerful than Netero, let alone get to a level capable of fighting Meryem head on.
So if Pariston sent in someone to nuke the Hunter's HQ that'd be a great move? Politics is arguably even dirtier than war. Yes it's a war so it's everything goes and whatever, but just like in real life we ban certain weapons under the Geneva Convention because there are things that people agree on is unacceptable even in war. If the Ants agreed to have a game of Gungi to decide to fate of humanity, and Netero agreed to play Komugi and just punched her to death and won by default, are you going to say that's great strategy too? Sure, when you're talking about the fate of humanity you have to pull out all the stops, but nobody would consider something like above to be a proper 'strategy'.
Well, if he wants to win the election then nuking the place would be a reasonably bad idea as such a thing is unlikely to get him votes however if his intention is to destroy the organization the nuking in principle is a wonderful way to go about it. The issue would be whether it is viable and if it is how to do it. You did kinda change the argument though, you went from something not being a good strategy (which it was) to whether it was acceptable or not. Even then, strategy is all about going against those stronger than yourself and winning with the minimum amount of resources wasted. If the fate of the world depended on defeating komugi on gunji and there is a way to save the world without having to play her at all then playing her is a terrible strategy and hacking her brains off with an chainsaw is a good strategy.
I have a fitting example on this one. A Sean Connery's James Bond movie once had a scene where a guy pulls out a gun at him. But in the middle of the fight, the guy had ended up in a bathtub. James Bond throws the lightbulb near him at the guy, and he dodges, but the lightbulb is still attached to the wall and falls on the bathtub, electrifying the guy.
Using props isn't sheer strength, although their effect might be very strong (such as electrifying a person to death). Same goes for the Rose and Meryem. He died because he underestimated the enemy and the possible circunstances, and not because he was overpowered.
Also, it wasn't such that it could have been anyone with a nuke strapped on. If it wasn't Netero, a very capable person with some chance to win by other means, Meryem would likely suspect what was coming. It was because Netero was who he was that the move worked. It was required someone strong enough to put Meryem in that position, not some fodder with a Nuke inside.
Let's say instead of Netero jumping down on the dragon, they just get a random guy strapped on a Rose instead (and Zeno stays on the dragon since he doesn't want to die) and throw him down the dragon when they get close to the palace.
Remember that the dragon was flying far too high for even Pitou to detect, and Netero was detected earlier than he ought to be because he's very powerful. This means whatever suicide bomber you used actually has more time before he's noticed. Now this guy could easily get killed in mid air, but having the Rose explode at low altitude will still do the job due to the poison. The only way to avoid it is if Meryem could get completely out of the blast radius before the body either explodes in mid air (if killed in air) or hits the ground, and I don't think there's even enough time to warn him since none of the Royals are within audible range of Meryem.
I suspect originally the Rose is not meant to be poisonous, and then it'd make sense why Netero has to be the only one to do it. If it's anyone else, Meryem would be able to get retreat the moment he sensed the bomb, and it seems like only a direct hit by the Rose could kill him, so if he put say a couple KM of distance (he sure is capable of that kind of speed), the blast wouldn't kill him. Only Netero would be strong enough to catch Meryem's attention so he wouldn't notice the bomb. Unfortunately this theory fails because the Rose is poisonous and uncureable, so you don't need a direct hit to kill Meryem. Actually, this also brings up the question why don't they just have someone spray the poison in the Rose. Morel's ability seems ideal for this kind of thing.
The poison really messes up any argument of requiring Netero to use it given its wide range and apparently undetectability (the Ants don't even know they were poisoned). The poison effect has to have a greater radius than the blast radius since it's a weapon designed against human (you shouldn't expect any human to withstand the Rose explosion). So the kill radius of the Rose should easily take out Meryem even if you just throw an average joe from midair to the throne room. I can see that just the blast won't be able to get a direct hit on Meryem if it's not wielded by an expert, but you never needed a direct hit to kill with Rose.
Last edited by Phantron; October 07, 2011 at 07:40 PM.
I guess it depends on the range of the bomb. Pitou's end extended over a mile which is an issue. Not to mention that there were 50000 people in the castle and there is a good chance that there were cities near to it considering it was a capital. There are also a few other issues to consider. The second these potential nobody with the bomb steps into the area he would get killed. Remember how kaito died? Pitou started his attack an enormous distance away from him. What if some nen was used against him and the bomb did not work? Ants got strong nen and developed them fast enough as it was. What if the bomb was damaged in such a way that it did not explode or if it got damaged while the body of this nobody exploded like a meat balloon from a lone attack from the guards? Anyways, the surest and safest way to deploy the bomb away from populated areas was what they did. They could have potentially use someone different from netero however I would think only the old guy could guarantee such a thing. Besides, netero at least had a shot at defeating the king, anyone else would have pretty much been send to die without any form of expectation of victory (which is something which is bound to be frowned upon later).
Imo, a fodder coming from the sky would get kicked to far, far away from the King, and if an explosion ever occurred close but not point-blank from Meryem, I think he could have escaped. If he suspected Netero was going to explode the bomb, he would have ran away fast enough to perhaps survive. Netero was a great planner, and the fact that he took so many precautions (fire at point blank when the enemy's distracted) says too much.
Not taking away the fact he wanted to die. But that was also a good reason to have Netero deliver the bomb himself. AND, it was a very good strategy, as kkck pointed out.