Nobunaga talks about it when he was asking Gon if he knew anything about the chain assassin. I checked the manga and Nobunaga only says he always loses to Ubogin if they're fighting hand-to-hand so it doesn't include Franklin, though he says Franklin and he argues with Ubogin all the time.
That said, since Spiders don't fight to the death amongst themselves, they presumably just punch each other until one guy gives up. Nobunaga without a weapon might be even beatable by Gon when they first met, so that's not exactly saying much.
Machine gun isn't meant to be a single point of penetration. I'm guessing Ubogin will either avoid it or block it and take minimal damage (but more depending on where it hits). For example hitting his body probably won't do much, but hitting his head should do some damage. Don't forget that Reinforcement also includes self-recovery, so it's fair to say that Reinforcement has a significant advantage in any 1 on 1 fight. It's not insurmountable but the Reinforcement guy definitely starts out in a good spot.
On one hand I don't think Reinforcement guys are indestructible, but it's also fair to say that if the Reinforcement guy doesn't do anything silly, they're very hard to defeat in a 1 on 1 fight. When you start out stronger than anyone else, and you can recover better than anyone else, that's a pretty hard advantage to overcome. Ubogin versus Nobunaga is a pretty good hypothetical example. Nobunaga said he cannot possibly beat Ubogin without a sword, but that's why he has a sword. We can assume Ubogin is still overwhelmingly stronger, but a weaker person can still win if you land a good hit with a weapon. But if Ubogin disarmed Nobunaga or just broke his sword, then based on what we know he cannot possibly lose, so that's still a very advantageous situation for him.
Last edited by Phantron; October 25, 2011 at 02:47 AM.
The only difference between reinforcement and emission is range. the reinforcements are better tankers and emissions are better casters.
Emitters cannot apply the same amount of strength to their hits as Reinforcers do. They got range, not power. Hence, a good reinforcer would likely block emissions without trouble. If Franklin's bullets were real ones reinforced with Ryuu and THEN emitted like a machine gun, I think Ubo would be vulnerable. But those are Nen bullets, and aura is as strong as aura. There's no saying emitted bullets would penetrate a Nen-reinforced-skin.
^Emitters can put just as much nen into their attacks as a reinforcer. The difference lies in that reinforcers use their nen to enhance their body meaning their attacks have their own natural strength and speed times the amount of aura they put into the limb worth of power while an emitter has simply the amount and speed of nen which they emitted. In a clash between them what would make the difference is the amount of nen. If the emitted attack exceeds the amount of nen of the defense of the other then that difference will be damage. Once there is such a difference, all that is defending the body is plain skin and we know nen attacks deal a considerable amount of damage even if the nen is not too strong.
I do not think ryu would work to strengthen emitted attacks and that emitters actually need to do that. Emitters don't concentrate their aura in their bodies, they release it. In that sense they don't really have to go ko (like gon) apparently does) to use their attacks. Remember razor? He never went ko before using his attack,he simply released his energy from his body and then threw it at his enemies.
Emitters do both.
They just are better at emitting than reinforcing. But, like Transformers, they are the nen type almost as good as Reinforcement when it comes to reinforcement.
Also, i don't think you know what is Ryuu. You might have been talking about Shu, which is using reinforcement on a item that is not part of your body (like a volleyball). Shuu could be useful for a Emitter, i guess.
We should be clear about the terms:
Ten: Basic protection. Allows you to resist even bullets well applied.
Zetsu: Basic hiding. Leaves you vulnerable to nenless attacks.
Ren: Basic Powerup.
Hatsu: Basic properties of the aura.
En: Sensing. It's Expanded Ren.
In: Advanced Hiding, included elements and Nen itself.
Shou: Advanced enhancing of an object. It's Ten expanded.
Gyou: Basic focus, usually in the eyes.
Kou: Advanced Gyou.
Ken: Advanced Ren, balanced Gyou.
Ryu: Advanced Ren, unbalanced Gyou. Basic-Advanced technique.
And about Reinforcements, I read on Internet somewhere something that made me quite curious: It said that Enhancers allowed to add more physical strength which reminded me the formula that Phantrom posted a while ago and then it made sense...It's not a Nen Multiplier about the Nen Multiplier which will remain the same...it's a multiplier over the strength itself.
So it would be (Force+Reinforcement)*Nen and not (Force*Nen)*Reinforcement.
Last edited by Uriel; October 25, 2011 at 09:38 AM.
put this on the first post, Uriel, so we can always reference to it or something... ^^
Yeah, I messed up. Don't know why tho, but yeah, I meant Shu. Funny that I double check each is which every time I'm going to comment on them and still scrambled the two.
Shu would be interesting for an Emitter, as it would enable their attacks to be reinforced. But actual aura cannot (we're almost sure of it, aren't we?) be reinforced, and thus cannot be stronger than any other aura. A body, on the other hand, can get reinforcement applyed and become more resilient than a bullet. Thus, I do believe that simple aura shots cannot injure a physically strong and top Reinforcement user.
And I think we should develop the terms a little bit before adding into the first post.
I did not mistake ryu in my post. More so, what would even be the point of using shu on an emitted attack? At best it would add more aura to it. Pure aura has no qualities of its own to enhance. It makes no sense to enhance aura with aura.
Like hisoka does with his Card, etc.
I am pretty sure there are some Emission user who uses Reinforced items as part of their main ability.
After all, Emission is good with Reinforcement and Manipulation, so it makes sense.
^The razor scenario is strange. He didn't necessarily reinforce the ball, he might just have made his nen stay in the empty inside of the ball. It makes no sense the ball would have been as strong as his emission attack otherwise. Regardless of that, what razor did with the bolleyball was by no means shu. Shu is a simple extension of ten over an object. Shu would not explain what razor did.
And still it makes no sense to reinforce nen with nen. Reinforcement enhances the properties of whatever it is enhancing. It can be hardness, strength... Anyways, what property would nen have that can be reinforced? Pure nen us just pure nen, adding more nen is not reinforcement, it is just an emitted attack with more nen. Reinforcement necessarily requires the enhancement of a physical property, nen in its natural form is not a physical thing (not saying it does not have physical effects).
Razor said him throwing the ball is comparable to his projectiles. Comparable doesn't mean they're the same. He was talking to a bunch of really weak tag-alongs and the implication seems to be that if you can't survive a projectile you probably won't survive him throwing a ball at you either, even if the latter is slightly weaker.
I don't see how aura is involved on the ball itself because Gon can punch it and it retains 100% of his power, so there's no reason to reinforce the ball anyway. Razor spiking the ball is an act of physical strength, not an Emission attack. While you can boost the power of an object by applying aura to it, it's not like a ball is supposed to be used as a weapon. Given the magical properties of the ball (retains 100% of whatever force you use to hit it), it'd make far more sense to reinforce your own hand and then apply that force to throw the ball, as opposed to reinforcing an object that isn't meant to be a weapon to begin with.
Hisoka's cards aren't really even all that powerful, since a person who doesn't know aura can still defend or take a hit from them without dying, and the cards themselves has to be reinforced by aura or it can't possibly do damage to begin with even against a normal person. In HXH, assuming no special abilities are involved, you're not going to reinforce another object to be stronger than what you could do physically. Hisoka's cards gives him some added range, but there's no way they'd have the same attack power as his fist no matter how much aura he puts into them. Likewise it'd be pointless to include aura in an everyday object like a ball and attempt to do damage with it compared to just throwing it with more force. Now, if the ball was actually made out of ordinary material, i.e. punching it with rock would make it explode, then it'd be a good idea to reinforce the ball itself instead, but we don't have this issue here as the ball is clearly made out of some utterly indestructible material.
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Actually, Shu is pretty much useless in HXH due to most physical objects, when used as a weapon, are nearly indestructible so any Reinforcement technique turns the weapon into a kinetic weapon.
For example, Gon picked up a tree against the bat/owl combo. If the tree was actually a real tree, if he was swinging the tree at his full physical strength, his grip should easily snap the tree in half and he'd lose his weapon. Therefore, he'd have to use Shu to strengthen the tree instead, because the tree isn't strong enough to withstand his physical strength. But since in HXH we have the hypothetical indestructible tree, that means Gon can just apply 100% of his physical force through the tree for maximum effect.
^I think you are thinking the ball part too much, I doubt the ball was anything beyond ordinary. Not to mention that the ball did seem to get nen on it from gon's punch. In this regard we could say gon was indeed reinforcing the ball through his rock. I also doubt gon used shu on the tree. We did not actually see him do such a thing to begin with. If the strength of the tree was an issue then ten would not even help much to begin with as ten is not an exceptionally strong technique either (its just ten).
And the volleyball definitely had shu, it was flat out stated.
Like Hisoka uses shuu on his cards- which makes them able to be embeded into walls, as well as do real damage on nen-users. So, stronger than bullets.
Or Wing used Shuu on the book page he tore off.
They just use Shuu to make the ball 'reinforced', *plus* used Reinforcement on their own body to throw it.
I am pretty sure, however, that it was Razor who used Shuu on the volleyball for everyone. And, yes- it's flat out stated Shuu was used.
Oh, and that mook with the spinning tops uses Shuu on them too, to make them hit harder than they should.
Also, Shuu isn't limited to 'Ten'. You can use any degree of increase you want (though maybe they have a different name for that).