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I don't think you can reinforce nen either.... I don't know how that would work as in a best case scenario that would mean just putting more aura into something. Reinforcing objects can be a good idea though. Take nobunaga. He reinforces a real sword which is bound to work phenomenally well if he actually knows how to use it. It would work even better if that particular sword has a special meaning to him. Reinforcing a nen created object would only work in a properly materialized object IMO however that would be limited by a materializer's skill is reinforcement which can't be much.
I was going through the fight between gon and knuckle and remembered an important detail. Knuckle said the aura that cover's gon's body was at around 1800 points however the aura from gon's rock was at 1800 points. In strictly numerical terms that makes no sense whatsoever as gon should only be able to put into rock as much aura as is covering his body at that moment. In that regard, I think that is where the reinforcement part kicks in. He gets better than expected results from concentrating a particular amount of aura in one particular area.
I think the Hunter's body is already close to the strongest material in the world (not counting Ants). Feitan attempted to reinforce his sword and broke it against Zanza. Nobunaga is a matter of Battou and that can easily be thought of a restriction, since Battou is one of those tecniques if you don't kill the enemy on first hit then you're dead (becuase you'd leave a huge opening). Kurapika's master told him if all he wanted to do is make a sharp sword you're better off just buying a sharp sword, so it seems like using aura to reinforce/create physical objects can't overcome the raw physical power of an equivalent skilled Hunter. Of course, aura created object can do more than just damage, but if you want just damage, you're better off buying a good sword (or invest in bombs).
I don't think the amount of AP you can use at once is related to school. Pufu and Pitou can both control an entire army at once. That sure sounds like using up a lot of AP at once even though neither are anywhere close to Reinforcement, not to mention the task itself has nothing to do with Reinforcement either.
I'm pretty sure Gon's ability to use a staggering amount of AP at once is partly heritage and partly tied to his special move. Defense in HXH appears subtractive. For example, Netero hit Meryem hundreds of times, and did no real damage. If one of his punch does 1000 damage, does that mean Meryem can withstand a punch that does 100000 damage? I doubt that. It's got to be something like Meryem's body can absorb 999 points of damage, so each hit only does 1 damage, and 100 hits at 1 damage = 100 damage to him. If it was possible to simply put more power in the Kannon, Netero would've done it already. So we can assume Kannon already uses his maximum AP output (not counting Zero, which has a nasty restriction). The only way Netero can increase his AP output is by using the Zero, which carries a considerable restriction (seems to suck up his life energy), and the Zero obviously did more damage to Meryem, so it has to use more AP too.
Going back to Gon, his move really has a very significant restriction. Like Knuckles say, there are many ways to deal with the charging motion. Also, you can just start running away in the opposite direction if you want to be safe (Gensuru said you can't hold that amount of aura in your hand for long, so even if Gon chases you, it'll likely dissapiate if you have enough distance). Even when Gon faked a Jajaken, he still uses up the same total AP, i.e.
1. Gon readies Jajaken (2000 AP used)
2. Enemy reacts
3. Gon cancels Jajaken
4. Gon uses the opening to do a second Jajaken (2000 more AP used)
Note that what makes his enemy nervous is the gathering of aura in his hand, so you can't fake that part. If he wants to look like he's gathering 2K of AP, he has to use up 2K AP. He can by pass the charging restriction by simply aborting the attack, but he still used up 2K AP and it's not even clear if this is a good idea. However since Jajaken is essentially a one hit kill move, I guess it's worth it if you land a hit even at the cost of 2X the AP.
It is very unlikely feitan is an enhancer though. As far as hunters having stronger bodies than any material I have my doubts specially if nen comes into play. I don't think hunter bodies would be able to tank through bullets and other sort of weapons without nen for one thing. Even Uvo had at least his ren up when he took on a barrage of bullets and a bazooka. Other than that we have no reference of a nen user stopping bullets with their muscles alone and no nen though. A reinforced sword IMO would be something to watch out for, specially if the sword is of good quality, nobunaga cares for it and he reinforces it. I doubt there are many people around who would not get caught by it.
AP release in general is not necessarily related to school but it would be if we are talking special techniques. Kinda like with the difference between gon's rock and paper. I do doubt the amount of categories other than reinforcement would result in an AP output superior to what they can have around their bodies though.
Also, I get the impression you are making every detail you can scrape of a technique as a form of determination or condition to make it stronger. I don't think it works that way, sometimes it is just a flaw in the technique or simply outright ineptitude. Charging time for gon is not a condition to fulfill a pledge nor proof of his determination, he is simply lame at moving nen around his body and concentrating in on his hand. Enhancers do not need complicated techniques which would require conditions or pledges. Gon was specifically told not to go that way and the manga has not given us any indication that he has gone against this.
Feitan is above average in the arm wrestling chart so he can't be very far away from Reinforcement. He's obviously a fighter member of the Spiders too and most people in Spiders with special abilities that aren't geared for fighting tend to be far away Reinforcement (Shalunark, Pakunoda, Shizuku).
If you use aura to reinforce a physical object, the guy defending can use aura to reinforce his body. I've seen no indication of existence some materials that can trivially pierce the physical body of a Hunter unless you count the Rose. Let's take a regular gun, which is actually one of the most powerful weapons in terms of pure destructive power compared to say, a sword. There's no a way Hunter will die to a regular bullet shot even without using aura. Sure, some of them could be wounded by a bullet, I can buy that, but it can't possibly kill them in one shot. So, you reinforce bullets with aura, but the Hunter can defend by reinforcing his body. If the two guys are exactly equal, then it's just canceled out, so it's exactly the same as the physical object versus the body of the Hunter. I don't think Hunter's body are indestructible, but there doesn't appear to be any object that can trivially kill a Hunter if he's not using aura,
In the manga it says Gon's paper consumes just as much AP as rock. It did very little damage compared to rock because he is inefficient at Emission. So, for the same technique he can consume up to 4000 AP for 3 different schools (no reason to assume scissor would be any different), but if you're not trained in that school it'd just not do anything useful. Paper did 500 damage for 4000 AP and Knuckles can bat it away with his hand. On the other hand a 2000 AP rock (Gon before training completed) can knock him out while he's fully defending. The numbers in HXH seems to work more like a threshold, i.e. anything below 1000 can be easily handled, once you go above there it quickly get into the realm of one hit kills.
For the restriction I'm not saying because Gon used this ability on Sunday, so part of the restriction is that it's only usable on Sundays. Think about what he modeled his technique over: the game rock paper scissors. Would you even consider something called rock paper scissors if it took 0.1s from start to finish? You can argue that if you can pray in 0.1s it's still praying, but a game of rock paper scissor in 0.1s just isn't the same game anymore. There's a very distinct "get ready" phase in the game.
When Killua got hit by the guy with darts as special ability, the darts obey the scoring system of the real game. Why does it have to do that? Can't the guy just say I'll ignore the scoring system and keep on throw darts until the other guy dies? No because if he did that, then the darts would not do any meaningful damage, if they're even usable at all. It doesn't look like the guy ever pledged: "I pledge this ability by the scoring system of darts". He's a fan of the game and just figured an ability based on darts obviously have to obey the real rules. That's what makes his ability strong, but it's also what allowed Killua to counter his ability. Gon derives extra power from the charging phase of Jajaken, but it's balanced by the fact that it is also his weakness. If you have at least the same speed as Gon, you can counter Jajaken by just running away every single time you sensed Gon gathering his aura, since his long range attack is too weak to be of any threat.
What does physical strength have to do with being close to reinforcement? I really don't think there is a correlation between then two in the least(not a direct one at least). Heck, nobunaga is a confirmed reinforcer and a swordsman and he is ranked 8 for arm strength in the ryodan. As for feitan, based on what we saw I would think he is a conjurer. He made the armor out of nowhere, I doubt he actually had it with him and instantaneously put it on so it has to be a conjured object at least. Emission is unlikely as the armor does not actually leave his body (the sun could be argued to be emission but the conjured armor would predate it so I would still lean towards conjuration). Transformation and reinforcement would not make sense. Since he has been mentioned to have several abilities, I get the impression he can actually conjure several armors perhaps each with different effects. Also worth noting, hisoka was about to cut the body of killua with a regular card, would it make a shred of sense that a reinforced sword could be stopped by a nen guard alone? I really don't think that makes a shred of sense. IMO a hunter would get hurt just the same as anyone else with a regular weapon in the case their nen guard is not up, I don't think the manga indicates otherwise.
Gon modeled his technique after janken but that does not mean he made actual aspects of the game restrictions for the technique. Such a thing has never been stated in the manga nor we have ever been given even the slightest indication that gon saying "janken...." results in stronger nen.
The ability of the ant guy is innately different. He didn't just base his ability on the game, his ability was the game and even had the darts and dart board...
Gon does not need a condition and a pledge to do meaningful damage, that is the greatest advantage of being an enhancer. He was specifically told by ling that the power enhancers are able to call forth with even basic abilities is already enough for it to be a finishing move. Anyways, I am tired of hearing this. There is not a shred of actual manga evidence to support this at all and if anything the exact opposite is the case. If you have a manga link which vaguely supports this notion then by all means post it though.
It's Gon choosing to restrict Jajanken by using a special incantation: http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/Hunt.../153322-3.html
'Turning' all the aura into reinforcement (100% efficiency) is different from using Reinforcement itself well. A Manipulation user will always use reinforcement on a lesser level than would a reinforcement user of similar talent and training, even with equivalent AP.
E.G, a reinforcement user who uses Shuu with 20% Aura in it, and a global Aura of 2000, will be stronger than a manipulation user who uses Shuu with 50% Aura, and a global Aura of 2000.
Different examples of higher levels Reinforcement:
http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/Hunt.../153234-6.html Zeno here.
http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/Hunt...190775-10.html Gon here.
http://www.tenmanga.com/chapter/Hunt.../153248-6.html Kurapika explaining it here.
That was the manipulation part.Quote:
The reinforcement part was improving the damage output.
If any school would, it would be Transformation, and Killua sucks at it.Quote:
Indeed. You *can* reinforce the materialized object, but not the 'materialization ability'.Quote:
Reinforcement is basically a 'make the object more effective' thing.
Fei-tan is usually believed to be transformation, and using Pain as a source of power.Quote:
'Nen Guard', A.K.A ten, is using reinforcement. Same with KEN.
The 'nen guard' of Ten is *always* up, though real fights using require Ken.
Last edited by Tombadgerlock; October 09, 2011 at 03:14 AM.
The incantation seems to be more like Leol's headphone, a timing mechanism to ensure consistency. Otherwise it'd be way too weak to have a restriction that can be reduced by simply speaking faster. It'd also be inconsistent with the time he used it without speaking at all.
1. 2000 damage * 0.6 (affinity penalty on level) * 0.6 (affinity penalty on power) = 720 damage.
2. Treating Jajaken as a X10 mod (100 base * 2.0 (Reinforcement natural mod) * 10 = 2000), the Manipulation Gon should get 100 * 1.36 * 10 = 1360. I'm assuming the special modifier does not change just because your type changed. The restriction should not be sensitive to what your base school is, though using the wrong school can lead to a further reduction due to experience. For example paper's 4000 AP -> 500 damage is way below what the formula predicts, and Knuckles say that's because Gon's inexperienced. When Gon is in adult form, his paper appears to do comparable damage compared to rock, whereas in child form the damage done by those two ability isn't even comparable (one hit kill versus swat away with one hand).
It is likely that had this Manipulation Gon existed, he might not even get to 60% due to lack of interest/training, but it has to be possible to at least hit his theoractical limit.
I think you have to include the base physical damage, which is not dependent on what type of user you are. Netero said he's declined to 50% compared to his prime. Since everyone says Netero's mastery of aura is unparalleled, I don't see how that statement can mean 'my aura ability is only half of what it used to be'. It has to mean 'my physical body has declined to 50% of my prime, so I"m limited to 50% of my prime's power".
Looking at the scale used (2000 enough to KO someone from full health), 1360 would be a respectable amount of damage. A Reinforcement user might be forced to use Kou to defend against that, or take some damage by playing safe (since a misjudged Kou can be fatal). These numbers seem inline with Shalunark's ability to control himself. There's no way he could be stronger than an equivalent Reinforcement user in this form, but if you're stuck with no other viable methods of escaping, it's still better than nothing. Although he is a Manipulation type, it seems his powerup is at least enough to give an equivalent Reinforcement user some trouble. He most likely won't win (since he doesn't even have intelligence at this point), but might be able to inflict some damage before falling.
Last edited by Phantron; October 09, 2011 at 04:58 AM.
Restriction aren't just about making the technique harder, they are about expressing Belief. It's a Will thing. Gon doesn't need to say his words clearly, but he still needs to get into his position, and say the word 'first is rock' (which he did against gensuru).Quote:
He needs that, because he believes it's the right thing to do. It makes it much stronger than a absurdly limiting restrction like 'must only use kou on human' or Kurapika's Chain Jail, were Kurapika any different.
Kurapika's chain jail is so powerful not because the restriction is that limiting (it's really not), but because it fits him so well, and because he really believes in it.
Same for Netero's "Prayer". Netero can "pray" pretty much instantly now. But that doesn't mean it's not something primordial for him.
My point was that manipulation, when it comes to reinforcement, is 2000 x60% x 60%, first 60% for efficiency in reinforcement aura, and second 60% because of how reinforcement quality is also limited compared to a pure Reinforcement user.Quote:
Manipulation is usually about infusing nen into an object in order to use it to use your manipulation ability on something else.Quote:
When it's not that, it's usually about 'programming orders' (or direct control).
Usually a weapon to hit someone else, you use Shuu reinforcement (basically, you include the weapon into your aura, which improves the weapon the same way it improves your body).
Transforming nen into heat? I guess it is plausible however the armor itself is evidently conjured. Wouldn't it make more sense that once certain conditions are filled he conjures the armor which has that special ability?
I also have problems seeing reinforcement being simply ten, ren or ken.
If using ten, ren or ken constituted reinforcement then why isn't killua's significantly weaker than gon's? Gon is an enhancer leaning towards emission yet his efficiency at that is at around 25% and yet killia being a transformation user can use reinforcement at the same efficiency as gon? Its not like this is a recent thing, from the first time killia learned ten he never seemed inferior to gon in that regard. More so, at least ten and ren are basic techniques which were in a separate categories from hatsu, they are 2 of the 4 principles. I don't see how they can be specifically part of reinforcement. I guess an argument could be made about the advanced versions of those techniques however even then it does not seem like there is an output difference between killua and gon which is inherently strange.
There is still the issue that the manga gas never said anything about gon saying "janken..." being any form of an incantation nor it ultimately resulting in a stronger nen than what would appear otherwise. The genzuru bit is more than proof enough. If the "incantation" is what you claim it is then not actually using it, not saying it, would basically mean gon did it wrong which would either result in less power being outputted or even a worst price paid as he would have broken a condition which he added to his nen (breaking a condition can result in a permanent loss of that nen).
I was thinking about that particular image. I think this shows what gon intends on his rock eventually looking like once it is fully developed. Take a note that it is dramatically different from what we are used to seeing. Ordinarily to use rock gon needs to use at least ren and concentrate all of his aura around his fist. He basically converts his ren or ken into that punch. In turn what gon does in the first link is dramatically different. First he outputs and enormous amount of aura and then he concentrates it on his fist. More so, the second link shows gon's body covered with aura which should not be the case under normal circumstances since most of his aura should have gone to rock. I get the impression that rather than fulling his rock with the aura around his body he fuels it by releasing nen from his inner reserves and then concentrating them on his fist. It would effectively get rid of one of the more important weaknesses of the technique as he would be able to charge it without lowering the rest of his defenses.
Also, Killua's Ken is significantly less reinforced than Gon's- it's not *weaker* though. It's just that Killua's Aura is only as Reinforced as 80% of someone with an equivalent Aura mass.
Output = ! = Efficiency.Quote:
Because he kept his condition. He did say it, it just was mangled.Quote:
It doesn't show his whole body covered with Aura.Quote:
It shows The aura in his fist, except seen from above it can look like covering his whole body, as it's so massive.
Ko is the enhanced form of gyo which concentrates aura in a particular area of the body. Ren is basically a higher than normal output of aura and ken is the superior version of that.
Also, from what we saw with gon using emission, his emission attack required the same amount of power or more to make than rock however its actual power once finished was significantly diminished. If the same applied to a transmutter doing enhancement then killua's ren or ken would have had to be necessarily dramatically inferior to gon's yet that was never the case. Nen in itself us not reinforced either, you reinforce your body or an object so in that regard you can't have a less reinforced nen (perhaps a more concentrated one though). If enhancement worked in the manner described then it would take significant training for a non enhancer to be able to use even a mediocre ren yet anyone can do that from the moment they awaken their nen and control it. Enhancement working that way would also imply that for a nen enhancer merely using ren would imply a massive waste of energy almost regardless of the nen type they actually are. I would think that the release of nen from the body along with the basic non hatsu techniques and their advanced forms should be 100% achievable to anyone hence why they are separated from the hatsu area.
---------- Post added at 02:50 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------
To be honest my current impression is that enhancement refers to an users capacity to concentrate nen in a single point. In that regard using ten, ren, ken and ryo does not qualify as using reinforcement since power is not being concentrated but rather its output is being controlled. Gyo is perhaps not concentrated enough to qualify as enhancement but in turn ko, which concentrates all of the aura around your body in one point would. That people other than enhancers could not use something as basic as ren or ken with complete efficiency does not make sense IMO however that a large concentration of nen would result in dramatically diminishing returns for a non enhancer makes a lot more sense.
I think the problem is that you are thinking too hard that Aura reinforcing the body = it's only for that.
It's true that Ken is in melee, but that doesn't mean that the Ken from a Materialization user would look any smaller than the one from a Reinforcement user.
It just means that only 60% of that Ken would be considered Reinforcement in the first case, while 100% of that would be considered Reinforcement in the second.
Basically, if Gon and Killua both have a constant aura of 2000, Gon has 2000 in Reinforcement in them, and Killua has 2000x80% = 1600.
However, both would look the same.
Btw, Ko isn't the enhanced form of Gyo. Ko is the enhanced form of Ren, Zetsu, and Gyo.
Gyo is usually used with Ren anyway, btw.
And 'Ken' Itself is also usually used with Gyo, as Ken gives 50Def/50Attack. When you use Ken with Gyo, it's called Ryuu, and it can do things like 20def/80Attack, or the opposite.
Output is a matter of training + special. Netero's Zero does far more damage than his normal Kannon, and it's basically a more powerful Kannon. If he can merely focus more power into a regular Kannon, why would he need to use the Zero which carries a nasty side effect? The normal Kannon represents Netero's maximum output without additional penalty. He seems to be capble of using Kannon hundreds of time, and he said he expected barely a scratch from the Kannon. So is he stupid just doing hundreds of negligible damage instead of focus all his aura in one strike? No, it's because it's physically impossible for him to increase his output without a nasty side effect.
Output has nothing to do with affinity at all. Jajaken uses exact same total amount of AP for the three schools it represents. This is stated by Knuckles, and it's one of the key weakness of his Jajaken that no matter what technique uses, it consumes the same amount of total AP. Gon's paper and scissor does far less damage due to inexperience in these schools, but still charges him the same total AP as his devastating rock. Now why would he ever use anything but rock? Because if you only use rock it's too predictable, though for the most part Gon pretty much only uses rock, and only mixes it up when he needs the element of surprise.
Gon's trademark is always his ridiculous output power. He's fighting guys who are way stronger than him (Gensuru, Razor, Knuckles, Morel), and most of them panic just seeing the amount of power he's gathering up, before he even attacked! The inefficiency argument may apply to all attack minus rock, but rock is just a straight up punch and I don't see how you can be inefficient at that. Knuckles said if he blocked the wrong area he could've died the first time he encountered Gon. At that point he has never seen him actually attack, so that estimate has to be soley based on the damage that should be done by the amount of AP gathered. Given the attack knocked him out in one hit, it seems consistent with his estimate (he did block correctly). It'd be completely meaningless to measure power if it was possible to be more than 100% efficient. In that case you can see someone gather a tiny amount of power and then kill you in one hit because that guy was 100000% effective at converting AP to damage. And if Gon's rock which is the simplest action possible (put aura on fist and punch) isn't 100% effective at converting AP to power , I'm not sure what can possibly be 100%.
Last edited by Phantron; October 09, 2011 at 02:21 PM.
Anyway, if it was, Rock definitely uses 100% reinforcement. However, there is a difference in the 'quality' of reinforcement. now, it's possible that the difference in the quality of reinforcement has more to do with a stable output than a max outpout, but given that there are clear example of higher-end reinforcement ability, i doubt it.
So, i am not talking about 100000% efficiency, i am talking about 100% efficiciency with a Kou that also uses a high-quality Reinforcement.
And, yes, this High-quality reinforcement can be seen quite easily from outside, even beyond Aura Mass.
It is true that paper was that much weaker than rock due to inexperience however it was also attributed to gon not being an emitter. Gon will eventually master the technique and improve its output however it can never be as strong as his rock simply because it is not his category. In this regard, output of a hatsu is indeed affected by the nen type you have. Also, I did not get the impression that gon's paper had the same amount of power as his rock but for some reason it packed a less powerful punch. Gon did use the same amount of power as with rock to make it however what actually came out of that effort was something significantly weaker. Knuckle was able to discern merely by observing the attack that it was weaker. He did not say "it has 2000 worth of power but hits for 500" he simply said it was MUCH weaker.
Now, the reverse should also be true. If gon was an emitter he should be capable of using a very powerful paper while in turn his rock would be dramatically weaker right? He could master his reinforcement however in itself his reinforced punch would never be as strong as his paper.
Now, if ten, ren or ken in itself counts as reinforcement how would the same not apply? Now, if the same applies it provides another issue for other nen types. How would they use their own hatsus if their ken is innately weaker due to it not being part of their affinity? The energy around their body, which they need to fuel their hatsu, would be weaker than that of a reinforcement by default which simply cannot be right. This is why I just can't see ten, ren, or ken counting as reinforcement, they have to be generic skills which any type can use at 100% by default through training.