Last edited by tupadre97; July 15, 2014 at 06:04 PM.
Togashi hasn't made such a big mistake as your saying and your honestly trying to disprove something thats fact... I don't see any hints of flame but this may be why the convo is getting heated.
Wheter it makes sense to you or not that doesn't change it from being fact or right.
Aura is always dissipating from the body through your pores.
Ten keeps this aura from leaking out; Ten is maintaining your aura around the body,....That game Ging was playing is a form of Ten, Ten in a sense is like shaping your aura.
Zetsu Locks all of your aura inside of you, even when normally your aura would leak away. If you lock ya door? Don't you use just twist it the other way to open it? You just stop doing Zetsu to open up ya pores....
I would think there is proof that ken generally makes hatsu stronger. Of course, it does not apply to all hatsu however it certainly works for most of it. Ken is basically maintaining ren which means ken is a state in which you are consistently outputting the greatest amount of aura you can. When you are using nen to attack directly the manga has shown that the max amount of aura you can use to power that attack is the amount of aura in your ken. That is basically what ko is. There is also the razor example who is an emitter. When he had his demons around they were using up a portion of his aura which is why when they returned his aura was larger. Same thing would go for transmuters, the maximum of the thing they are transmuting their nen to is the total of their ken. It wouldn't work for conjuration or manipulation though, they work different from the other 3 schools for the most part.
^ in the game J-Stars Victory Vs, Gon has 2 modes he can enter: Ko and Ken, whenever he enters Ken his aura is blue/white and his defense is way stronger. When he uses Ko his aura turns yellow and his attacks drastically increase. I just thought this would be an interesting fact for some people.
In is stated to be an application of Zetsu, but your explanation doesn´t cover In applied on Kurapika´s chains, so there you go.
I admit there I have no idea what you are talking about right now (god letters?!?).
You think there is a miscomprehension and you don´t strive to rectify it in any way. You just came here to state your opinions and "facts" without any intent of discussing at all, so yes we are done.
The thing is Togashi is not using facts at all. He created some world and a Nen system. In his universe they are facts, but as far as our world is concerned, nothing about Nen is a fact. If it is a fact it can be proved which is not the case in Nen system, you can only use a piece of his (maybe inherently flawed) Nen fiction to prove his Nen fiction.
when nodes are closed the aura is Not disspating outside - that is the point of Zetsu.
Shaping your aura into numbers is a basic Transmuter training so there´s that.
I get and agree with the Transmuters part, but the Emitter part? I don´t think Ken is involved. Razors´ ability could use explanation here. I don´t know how accurate Hunterpedia (the wikia) is, but there is something missing. Razor must be also using Transmuting. If he were using Conjuring then his dolls wouldn´t be Emission dolls and just by using Emission he wouldn´t get their looks, voices, shapes so he must be using Transmuting. Razor then uses Ren, transmutes that into dolls, cuts them off and Manipulates them from distance.........but since they are an aura......then he must retain them manually....with Ten..... which makes it Ken........ so uh.. yeah you´re right here too.
As a sidenote, that Razor example got me thinking, what if Killua uses the electricity to recharge aura and not the electricity. If Razor can Transmute his dolls back into aura, then Killua should be able to Transmute his electricity back into aura. That would mean if killua finds an electricity source similar to his electricity, he should be able to transmute that electricity into his aura for him to use.
maintained over a long period of time. Gon and killua did not really defy that either. They had bisk guiding them through the whole thing back then and her ability allowed them to do sleep the equivalent of 8 hours in 30 minutes. In conjunction with their talent they made that month be worth way more than it would have been worth otherwise, they had a few months worth of training all in all. Of course, their talent did help. Still, the end issue is that this is not a "ren or ken" situation but rather its "ken or ken". A short burst of aura (ren) is impractical and ten would not produce even enough aura to defend even from someone using ken, let along more advanced techniques. Which is why producing a high level nen user seems to take somewhere in the vecinity of a decade worth of training..... I guess it is possible to simply use ren to defend but I would argue there are risks to it. You'd have to time it perfectly to defend from attacks but if you miss you'd take a lot of damage. Ultimately ken (and ryu) are the foundation of nen combat, at least in the way gon and killua learned it, there is no way around it.
Isn't that the implication so far? I don't think killua has an option to recharge electricity but not nen.... Transmuters don't actually produce elements or whatever they transmute their nen into, they simply have nen look like those things. In that regard killua's nen is not actually electricity, it simply has the look and feel of it but it is still nen.
The only way you would die from nen exhaustion would be if your pores were awoken and you never used ten. When they are unawakened they leak normally and even when you learn ten they still leak just slower, which is why it retains your youth for longer. And the god letters are the symbols that made the pirate boxers hastu stronger in the ring in greed island. They are also what ging put on that metal box and tape he left for gon, and what was on the promise band wing made for gon that snapped when he used nen. We have no idea how they work similarly to how we don't know how In works. But seeing how you don't even no what they are or even how ten works for that matter you clearly don't understand nen so again there is no reason for us to debate this.
Unless my math or starting data is wrong, let´s suppose in that month they get 2 months and a half worth of training thanks to Biscuit cheating sleeping time. That would mean their Ren should have been lengthened by 25 minutes, but they start at around 55 minutes mark and end up overcoming 3 hours mark with a generous power left. That would make their increase roughly 125 minutes. They got roughly 5 times worth out of that training than they should have, which is, in my opinion (and in the end a matter of opinion), defying to say the least.
Let me ask you a question, if they can maintain Ren over 3 hours and Ken only for 30 minutes, why is it that they should use Ken and not Ren if the boost is the same (I know you touched upon that in your post but...)? I would answer that because Ren is not under their control, is uneven (the spiky surface is an indication of that) and dissipates aura needlessly into the air, whereas Ken retains aura, evens the surface, makes aura more condensed - thus more useful for defense.
Well Killua transmutes his aura into electricity but it still is his aura, but transmuting real electricity into aura is in my opinion a feat on a completely different level. Not taking into account that, of all kinds of electric currents there are, Killua just happens to find one compatible with his ability? Well, I have already said in 348 chapter discussion (I don´t expect you to know that, just that I already posted similar thing before) that now I am convinced that Togashi approaches Nen functionally, so in that view it would make sense.
I knew about those, I just didn´t know they were called God letters (aren´t they called sacred symbols in Viz translation?). And we know how they work - you infuse the paint with Nen over a long period of time. If the Nen enhancing properties come from the signs then there would be no need to infuse the paint with Nen.
This is the second time you use that passive aggressive tone with me. The next time you use that, I will ignore any points and remarks you make.
I feel really conflicted here. If Ken is stated as an application of Ren and Ten and (on the same page!, the one you referenced) is described as just a maintaining of Ren, then for me that goes against each other. Either Ten does not come into play at all and then it goes against the first explanation or it does come into play and then it goes against the second explanation (and maybe representation). Going one step further in the no Ten relevance why is "keeping" one´s Ren 10 times aura demanding than keeping "Renning" off then? What IS the qualitative difference between maintaining your Ren and keeping "Renning" off?
You know I hope after reading that no one will go through manga and try counting volume of aura shifted around in Ken and Ryuu just to prove you either wrong or true.
I read this paragraph at least 5 times and I stil don´t think that it answered my original question; If they can maintain Ren over 3 hours and Ken only for 30 minutes, why is it that they should use Ken and not Ren if the boost is the same?. I think you got Ten mixed up there with Ren in my question, but i will address what I can.Quote:
Ren does that too and they can do it much longer than Ken.
I can´t wrap my head around that sentence, really. Either it is a Tautology or there is something missing (at least for me).
Well, I think even without taking into account the anime portrayal it follows that if Ken is just maintaining one´s Ren, then Ren and Ken should be of equal speed, since the source is one and the same - Ren, no?
Last edited by Master OZ; July 30, 2014 at 09:17 AM. Reason: Whoops stealthy goblins ate a part of my post
Isn't ren simply a burst of nen? I was under the impression that it was a short term thing by definition. Ken in turns breaks that barrier and works under the principle of maintaining it over a long period of time.
Didn't the manga say that the reason ken lasted less in battle was because in battle many other factors came into play? During training gon and killua remained basically stationary but while fighting they move around and have to concentrate and whatnot.
Well Ren is indeed short but if Killua and Gon can learn to keep Renning off for three hours then in that case it is no longer a short burst of Nen. Ken´s length is directly dependent on Ren´s length because the naming "Ken" refers to special simultaneous use of Ten and Ren, while another simultaneous use of Ten and Ren is referred to as "En" to differentiate it from "Ken".Quote:
I think I misunderstood your point. "building your ren can take time" - how fast ren comes out; It comes out really quickly. "last in battle" - duration in battle; Yes indeed it lasts much less because of emotions, stamina is also used for other things (jumping around, blocking, punching, kicking, etc.).Quote:
^ Ren is in fact the burst of aura, and Ten is maintaining it around the body. Both Ken and En are applications of Ten and Ren. The difference between Ken and En is the range they cover. In Ken, Ten maintains the Ren close to the body for defence; while in En, Ten maintains the Ren as far as possible from the body to sense objects. Ken gotta be as difficult to keep as Ren, if not easier. In Ren, you have to keep bursting aura; as you keeping letting out aura, you'll eventually get exhausted. But in Ken, you maintain the aura, you won't have to keep bursting at the same rate; there's a lesser chance to get exhausted from Ken than Ren.
I wonder why Knuckle's Potclean have instantaneously appeared from no where near Pouf when Knuckle hit his copy at the palace when the King was in his way to it. He can't be emitting his aura all the way to the real Pouf that fast.
I have a theory but let me first see what your thoughts are on that.