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That's because you're referring to the strength and usefulness of the jutsu, not the ability to use it, which is what i'm referring to. Nagato's skill with the Rinnegan is based on his own efforts, sure. But that skill isn't what allows him to use his Pein abilities. It determines his effectiveness with the jutsu handed to him, but doesn't change where they came from. Lose the Rinnegan, you lose that super special awesome ability. Further example?
Itachi's strength with Tsukuyomi is attributed to his skill with Genjutsu. But his ability to use it in the first place is most certainly not thanks to his skill in Genjutsu. It's thanks to the fact that he has the MS. You take his MS, you take his strongest Genjutsu. Take Nagato's Rinnegan, you take the only thing that makes him worth a damn. Until something in the manga shows him being effective without the need of the Rinnegan. That's... pretty much the cut and dry truth of Nagato's "strength".
EDIT: Oh! And for that "impressive speed", remember he saw them all coming from a mile away thanks to his hidden lizard and shared sight. Their speed didn't matter because of yet another ability recieved from the Rinnegan. I'd love to see Nagato see someone approaching him from behind without the use of this ability, lol.
Last edited by ninjabot; October 18, 2011 at 07:59 PM.
I could do the same thing to Sasuke; take away his Sharingan and all you have is a kunai attached to a piece of string and some katon, maybe raiton if he wants to be killed by the counter-attack. Ok, maybe I'm being a bit harsh but other than Stamina, how does Sasuke trump Kakashi?
I never knew a run-of-the-mill shinobi would possess three nature transformations, his/her own personal summons, create Chidori, and be highly regarded by the Uchiha and the rest of the village at 12-13 years of age.
But I reiterate, "why would I do that? They both have it and have mastered it, so it's their tool to use much like their hands and feet"
"smart idea to..."? Please, make this thread.
---------- Post added at 02:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 AM ----------
People love to take so and so from Nagato but nope, it doesn't work, because it doesn't exist in the Narutoverse. Lol, why should it even be a debate? I can make a whole list of 'if you take X from shinobi A, you'll get this' but what's the point? They have it already and it's their tool to use.
Most average jounin are expected to have learned atleast 2 elements, so yeah. As for personal summons, I'm not sure that can be attributed to jounin level, let alone high jounin level. Above average taijutsu and two elements (usually) is really all that's required of a jounin. As for "why you would do that", it's because you want to find out whether a ninja is strong because of access to a hax ability, or strong because of their base abilities. Take away the hax and see if they stand on their own two feet.
As for the rest of it, it'll become obvious in the other thread.
That WOULD be the right frame of mind to take... if it wasn't for the fact that we've seen the Rinnegan turns you into an emaciated skeleton of a man. I don't need to see Nagato running around and fighting to know that he's slower and weaker than Sasuke or Itachi or even Naruto (which says alot) at their base levels, because Nagato's base level is friggin' geriatric cripple. Granted he wasn't like that before, but he wasn't using the Rinnegan's full power either. Rikudou Sennin had the Juubi's chakra, which likely offset the side effects. Tobi has 7 bijuu, which is still better than none.
It just makes more sense to base a ninja's strength on what they've shown. And if they've only shown an ability to be dangerous when relying on one particular weapon, then it's not hard to see them as pretty much crippled once that weapon is taken away.
The manga hints that the power of the Rinnegan is that of the Uchiha and Senju combined. If this notion is proven correct, then the Rinnegan is undoubtedly the greatest eye technique there is.
Rinnegan. It's even outright stated in the manga that it's the most powerful of the "three great doujutsu" (the others bein sharingan and byakugan).
I didn't mean for it to sound snarky, however I will take your bait.
The Rinnengan is a function of Nagato's body - therefore the skills (i mean abilities, not skill in the sense of how well he performs the move) he has using it can be solely attributed to the function of his body (the Rinnengan)?
In this case, what about ninja's innate ability to use specific forms of chakra, and not others?
Surely Sasuke wouldn't be able to cast chidori without his affinity for lightning chakra. His affinity "
'determines' where his ability to cast this move comes from - it's just his 'skill' that determines his "effectiveness with the jutsu handed to him".
Lose his affinity, you lose the justu.
So remove Nagato's Rinnengan and you make him useless?
remove Itachi's arms and you do the same!
--- also in reply to this post ---
Nagato in non cripple mode (when he had taken some of Bee's chakra) managed to keep up with (I don't necessarily mean in speed - but react to and counter in the same way Sasuke did with the Raikage - due to his eyes I may add, however that probably wouldn't help matters all that much) both Bee (in tailed mode) and Naruto (in KB mode), now sure he used Rinnengan moves - but he still managed to speed to where Bee was after he was thrown back by shinra tensei (speed has not been counted under Rinnengan special moves quite yet).
Now you may consider his moves, ability to detect what move someone is going to do by the pressure they emit, his massive chakra supply etc. with just his Rinnengan, but I don't think that is really fair.
Especially when he was beaten due to
Itachi using sharingan only moves (yes the sword appears to require the susanoo - and he used the wierd spinning move (forget it's name) to help destroy the fake moon which he would be dead had he not had such a devistating move (and Naruto and Bee's help))
Bee using his hachibi moves - and again a biju ball to destroy the moon
Naruto using his kyuubi mode - though he probably could have done fuuton rasengan using just sage mode, it would have needed Bee and Itachi's moves also.
Also - remove Nagato's rinnengan and he wouldn't have been a cripple anymore - he wasn't born a cripple.
Hindsight doesn't help at all in considering what he may have been should he have tried to learn ninjutsu without his Rinnengan, in the same way as it would drastically change the following ninjas
Neji - without byakugan - no gentle fist/different fighter
Lee - being able to use ninjutsu - not concentrate on taijutsu only/different fighter
Naruto - without kyuubi - not a social outcast, easier chakra control, not have to act up in his youth (so who knows how serious in his studies/whatever he may have been)/different fighter
Kakashi - without sharingan - not the "copy ninja" anymore, not able to use chidori/different fighter
Kimmimaru - without bone kekkei genkai - different form of close combat fighting or maybe not even heavily practice it at all/different fighter
Perhaps more strikingly
Tobi - without sharingan - no intangibility, teleport, mugen tsukyomi, izanagi - utterly different fighter
The bodily functions that people are born with (or gain in Kakashi's case) will affect how people fight, and what moves they do, and what moves they can do and will learn..... Removing Rinnengan wouldn't make Nagato useless, it would make him NOT Nagato!
Last edited by zimbardo; October 19, 2011 at 05:50 AM.
I think it should be self evident that the rinnengan is more powerful. The sharingan and any of its forms are simply the power of the uchiha. The rinnengan, is a combination of the power of the uchiha and senju/uzumaki, a combination of the two powers, a complete power, the power of the rikudo.
And as always, Nagato was never called a genius whereas Sasuke was called a genius before he could even control his Sharigan.
This takes nothing away from Nagato who is more powerful than the current Sasuke, but Madara himself said that Sasuke had the potential to be greater than Nagato, ala his ceiling is higher.
Originally Posted by zimbardo
All of this is correct, and yet none of it disproves anything I've said, so I don't get why you'd bring it up unless you thought you were making a different point from the one you actually made. Sasuke can't use raiton without his natural affinity for it, no. But he uses katon which is not a natural affinity of his. It's an earned one. His skill with sword wielding isn't a natural affinity. It was earned over a 2 and-a-half year time skip of training. His shuriken and ninja tool expertise comes from practice. His summoning of hawks is also not based on any affinity, nor his tactical expertise, nor his shunshin specialty.
Also your analogy is FAR off. The equivalent of removing Nagato's eyes would be removing Itachi's eyes, not his arms. Doing so would leave Itachi with his Suiton and Katon, the jutsu he learned onward up until his Sharingan mastery, and his tactical mind. Can you honestly say Nagato would have any of these without his Rinnegan? No. No, ofcourse not.
The rest of it doesn't need addressing, but I'm addressing this particular line because I want to:
Originally Posted by zimbardo
The bodily functions people are born with do not have to limit them however and most CERTAINLY do not define them. Removing Nagato's Rinnegan makes him a Rinneganless Nagato. That's it. He's still the same man with the same mentality and the same tactics and the same base speed and the same weapon proficiency. It just so happens that we have no manga proof that says any of those base skills are any greater than amateur level without the inclusion of his Rinnegan. For Sasuke and Kakashi however, they've performed feats that didn't require their Sharingan, so their skill without their deus ex can't be denied.
NONE of this has anything at all to do with which eye is more powerful, so I dont' know why I'm posting about it anyway... but my point is assuming Nagato has any worth to him at all as a ninja despite what his eyes allows him to do is presumptuos and lacks evidence to back it. Unlike Sasuke and Kakashi and quite possibly, Itachi.
And on the skill with the sword and shunshin - these were increased exponentially by his sharingan.
And Nagato wouldn't have the same mentality, or certainly tactics, or weapon proficiency.
Mentality - not have his God complex, therefore not feel he can solve everything by himself.
Weapon proficiency - lacking the ability to see in all directions at once really does dampen ones ability to predict oncoming attacks.
ALSO, Jiraiya wouldn't have decided to train him, so he may not be able to do anything at all?
and Tactics? - 1/ HE wouldn't charge in to attack places by himself with no fear of getting killed
- 2/ HE wouldn't fight with 6 people at once (I am sure you can agree that fighting with 1 or fighting with 6 are fundamentally different)
- 3/ HE wouldn't have shinra tensei, so would probably use shadow clones/dodging/replacement jutsu etc. to not get killed
- 4/ HE would have a different move set - therefore different tactics required
It's amazing how much difference having a massively overpowered weapon can have on a person's character
Perhaps without access to such ninjutsu, he would have pulled a Lee and gone all taijutsu crazy, then it certainly would have affected his speed/tactics etc. Who knows?
And the only reason for this is that Nagato has always had, and always will have, the rinnengan - therefore for people like you who seem to find an immense hatred for him, everything he ever, ever does can be easily attributed to his rinnengan.
and true it doesn't really, except for the fact that if you feel that the rinnengan is all that makes Nagato good, and Nagato has been shown to be stronger than the current strongest shown Uchiha (Madara excluded for obvious reasons in the manga - further proving the supremacy of rinnengan though) - Itachi - then the rinnengan is obviously stronger then the sharingan.
Also, I am not sure that I understand the bottom category of the poll:
"it depends on the user"
surely if the arguement is what is stronger, sharingan or rinnengan, then one would imagine the question relates to if ninja X had the sharingan or if he had the rinnengan (everything else the same) which would he be stronger with?
The answer is the rinnengan.
Last edited by zimbardo; October 19, 2011 at 06:52 PM.
AFAIK, Nagato can still use all the elemental ninjutsu, the rinnegan simply allowed him to master them quickly. Jiraiya said he had mastered all types of elemental transformation by a very young age (9 or something).
Since he's already mastered the methods for transforming them, he should be able to do them whenever he wants.
Not my point, I never said he was a genius. It's clear Nagato's power stemmed from his Rinnegan but it doesn't change the fact that it required mastery. His body still contained an unusually large amount of exceptionally strong chakra, he mastered all six nature manipulations and everything Jiraiya had taught him at age 10. That's pretty amazing in my book. Jiraiya's no genius but he's still on the same level as Itachi. 'Genius' only goes so far in the manga. Hey, Kakashi was considered a genius before he obtained the Sharingan, too.
All I'm saying to ninjabot is that if you can take away dojutsu and traits from other characters, then I could do the same to Sasuke and Itachi, the only difference here is that Nagato without the Rinnegan doesn't exist so that's all we can go on.
Mate, we all knew many years ago that Naruto and Sasuke's potential for greatness was greater than everyone else, that's a given. Whether it be Haku, Kimimaro, Neji, Madara, Itachi, Nagato, Minato, etc.... Naruto and Sasuke's potential >>> or at least around the same level. Nagato's potential was lowered when he lost his mobility.
---------- Post added at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------
This has been my point for the longest time. Why are you trying to nerf Nagato, lol?
Take away Nagatos rinnengan is the same as taking away Sasukes Brain and Eyes or Narutos kyuubi and legs.. Seriously lets not try this whole "take away" this from this character and you have a potato.. You have no idea what these characters would be like without the powers they possess.
With that said, i dont understand why anybody could argue about the Rinnengan being much more superior than the Sharingan and all its forms..
---------- Post added at 10:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:35 AM ----------
Tobi has the Rinnengan and Madara too, theyre not cripples now are they? Tobi summoned Gedo and he never had rods in his back, what happened to Nagato is yet to be properly explained. And where did you get this whole Base Nagato is slow from?
And this whole "Naruto (which says alot)" You do know base Naruto is the same speed as Sasuke right?
---------- Post added at 10:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 AM ----------