The Byakugan is superior to all! Your lowly eyes cannot comprehend the power it has!
Joking, but seriously I don't know anymore, both are now overpowered to ridiculous proportions. Before the recent chapter, I thought the Rinnengan was definitely superior to the Sharingan, but apparently it doesn't matter anymore since they are the same thing now. I understand that their ancestor was the first ninja ever but come on now, this is getting ridiculous. I miss the old day where the Mangekyo was the thing to get, then they brought in the EMS, and now the Rinnengan. It is all screwed up now.
Sasuke was the same type as him, implying that Sasuke's main nature is lightning.
so fire is his 2. element?
I think fire is the main element from the uchiha and the other elements are the second(in sasukes case raiton)
Originally Posted by Oathencrantz
I never said anyone did. I said that people say that Sasuke is nothing without his Sharingan, not that people say Nagato is better than Sasuke because of his Rinnegan being better than his Sharingan. You just QUOTED what I said, right here so I don't know how you confused the two:
Originally Posted by Me
And if you think no one's ever said what's in bold, then you've either not been here for the past 3 or 4 years, or spent your time avoiding the arena threads. But then it wouldn't be fair of me to just assume you follow the threads... but even if you didn't follow the arena, you would've heard this bull in the actual manga discussion threads. That said, I might've accidentally claimed someone's said that Nagato's better, but even if I goofed and said that, it's fine, because my initial reason for posting in this thread anyway is to eplain the difference between using a ninja's tools to guage their worth, and using the ninja's base skills.
Actually, that's right. I didn't want anyone reading the replies and thinking "Hah, Rinnegan is so much more powerful than the Sharingan, that obviously means Nagato>>Sasuke!!" Though that doesn't mean I said someone else said it (wouldn't be surprised if someone did though...)
Originally Posted by tobeulp
See? This is what I'm trying to fix. Yet another person claiming Sasuke is no one impressive without his doujutsu, but I'm not crying "Don't take his Sharingan, it's not fair! You're nerfing him!!!" Instead I'd simply point out the instances in the manga where Sasuke was proven to be elite even without the use of a Sharingan (but Rikudou King masterfully did so for me). But heaven forbid we expect someone to do the same for Nagato. That's not fair. Granted, he has nothing to show us in the manga... but you'd think people would accept that and simply say "Well, since we've got no proof of Nagato's skill outside of his doujutsu mastery, I guess there's no reason to assume he's any better than anyone that's already shown what they're capable of."
Last edited by ninjabot; October 21, 2011 at 02:07 PM.
However, you're met with a problem. Nagato doesn't exist without the Rinnegan, whereas Sasuke has shown us what he could do without his Sharingan. So constantly drawing comparisons between Nagato without his dojutsu to Uchiha X without his own, in order to boost him beyond what he should be, simply doesn't work that well.
Last edited by Oathencrantz; October 21, 2011 at 03:53 PM.
Flashback showed Sasuke learning a fireball jutsu before he even got his Sharingan. He learned raiton 5-6 years after, and we even see him using more katon jutsu before learning lightning element, against Haku and Orochimaru.
Also, if you take Rin'negan away from Nagato he's nothing. He has shown nothing that could make him good without Rin'negan, apart from running away if his speed is really as it was when he ran after Bee/Naruto after using Shinra Tensei and when he saved Konan. he hasn't shown much intelligence or as much planning in battle, nor has anyone said he was a genius. Even Jiraiya attributed him learning 5 elements to Rin'negan.
Whereas, Itachi and Sasuke have been praised for their skills, intellect, and talent before they even got Sharingan and before they even became genin. THis is manga fact and is included in the flashback as well as after. Yes, Sharingan did save Sasuke's ass, but it didn't pull stuff out of his butt like Rin'negan did for Nagato, like Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, and robotism.
Though, the difference between Nagato and Itachi/Sasuke/Kakashi's power says a lot about Rin'negan and Sharingan. Rin'negan is so powerful it made an average shinobi one of the most powerful shinobi, though deadliest would go to Tobi and Minato.
And for the reference, I'm not an Uchiha supporter. Itachi is the only Uchiha I like, and Madara is the only Uchiha I don't dislike. I am biased against Nagato though, I won't deny that.
No one mentioned that Nagato was a genius or that the Rinnegan didn't the help him in learning and mastering all 5 nature manipulations; that's what the dojutsu does, it's manga fact. I don't think I disputed that.
And again, if you label what Nagato was attributed with by the Rinnegan as 'ass-pulls', then the same must be said for the Sharingan. But why would I do that? The techniques that both the Rinnegan and Sharigan offer come with the package, no one should have to come to terms with that because it's simply what Kishi has given them.
Buuuuut, if we're gonna label things as ass-pulls then having minimal chakra and time to summon a boss summon, cast a manipulative genjutsu, and camp inside it's mouth, takes the top spot.
Last edited by Oathencrantz; October 21, 2011 at 07:14 PM.
Sasuke will not be greater than Kakashi without his Sharingan... Even without sharingan Kakashi is an elite ninja this is a fact while Sasuke without his sharingan just learn fireball etc and I daresay without Sharingan Itachi is lower than Kakashi also why we didn't see a sh!t about Itachi without him being recognize as a Uchiha elite he is not recognize as a prodigy that didn't use his sharingan to achieve his genius status in Konoha but he use his blood line to achieve it.. Point his Kakashi is the only one recognize as an elite already even with him not having the sharingan yet while Sasuke and Itachi are born with Sharingan being praise as a child is not even counted here because when they started using their sharingan they will use it again and again and IIRC Itachi awaken his sharingan younger than Sasuke so this means Sasuke is far more powerful than Itachi without their sharingan..
If Sasuke without his sharingan will he be a jounin level on what he had accomplish on not using it the answer is a Big NO!! so would I consider that a feat... Come on guys Sasuke started using Sharingan in part 1 this is shippuuden now from what I see every fight he need Sharingan...
To end this just get some pages in Shippuuden when Sasuke fought an enemy without his sharingan you can't say he is a genius even without his sharingan IIRC that is in part 1 where he is still a genin and if he didn't use his sharingan Lee/Neji will kick Sasuke's ASS!!..
This will be my last reply here comment on anything but don't expect a reply I will not waste time explaining how weak will Sasuke will be just without his sharingan dream on guys how will Sasuke will be if he didn't have Sharingan for me he is far lower than Lee if he didn't have the lame doujutsu that you guys want to rip off guys so you can prove that your bet is stronger than their enemy for me that is just pure childish.. I will just read some arguments in HxH forum there are far more interesting conversation there IMO..
That's a plan he came up with BEFORE invading Konoha. To be honest, Nagato would have been a horrible ninja if he didn't think of that kind of plan after coming up with six bodies as a way to make up for lack of mobility.
Someone said that Nagato was able to master 5 nature manipulations without Rin'negan or something, just as how few said Itachi and Sasuke wouldn't be good or jounin level without their SHaringan.Quote:
Everyone complains about Sharingan being an ass-pull, at least when Sasuke uses it. Nagato has done a lot more but no one complains about Rin'negan being asspull. That's all I'm saying, otherwise I agree with you.Quote:
Nothin to do with Sharingan though. It'd be like, according to someone, Sasuke being able to discern the color of chakra when he fought Deidara.Quote:
The measuring stick I used aren't facts though. Jiraiya attributed everything to Rin'negan, including thinking Nagato would be the chosen one.
Originally Posted by Oathencrantz
Originally Posted by Me, again
LOL, I told you I didn't say someone said it. I said someone will. Feel free to double check the post you quoted from me. Again. I hate to argue semantics, but when you're seeing messages in my posts that I never said, I gotta clarify.
Originally Posted by Oathencranzt
Then by all means ignore what I'm posting, because I'm correcting years upon years of the same argument I've been fighting against since Shippuden started. It just so happens to link with this actual thread, because it brings into question the strength of a ninja's doujutsu, and I'm fighting against the notion that Sasuke is only strong because of his doujutsu. So while off topic, it's not greatly so.
Originally Posted by Oathencrantz
Not after multiple posts have been made to try to paint me as some badguy deliberately trying to nerf Nagato for the sake of belittling him. You knew what my posts were meant for from the beginning, yet still implied I'm only posting inorder to bolster Sasuke's status in the manga, and belittle Nagato's. Despite the fact that I was taking away BOTH ninja's doujutsu in the interest of fairness. You only get to make implications 2 or 3 times before I start using colorful language. It's a rule I placed on myself as a service to the forum community, in the interest of fairness. Sounded like a better idea in my head.
My point is, no one cares that it's his to use, because whether it's his or not, it doesn't change whether he exploits it and can't fight without it, or whether he's a well rounded ninja that doesn't have to rely on his doujutsu to be effective in battle. No one cares, just like no one cares that Sasuke's Sharingan is his (or else they wouldn't claim he's nothing without his Sharingan, they'd concede that it's his tool to use and wouldn't feel the need to nerf him). Once again, I site tobeulp's posts. You may not believe otherwise, but the beauty of my posts is that they're not meant for you alone and thus shouldn't be replied to as if they are. Well, except the whole crying about nerfing part. If I wasn't nerfing Sasuke aswell I could understand your sceptism. But I did, so I don't. Which is why I called it crying. If I'm wrong, then oops.
Originally Posted by Oathencrantz
^See what I mean? You don't get the luxury of kiddy gloves when you start making accusations. And yeah, I know he doesn't have the feats. That's what I meant by it's rhetorical when I ask them to prove that he's an exceptional ninja without the Rinnegan. At that point posters are supposed to come to the conclusion themselves: "Well, I can't prove it. I guess if I wanna nerf Sasuke to prove his worth I gotta do the same with Nagato. But since I can't, I better just let it go."
It's like the "Minato will always break out of Genjutsu, everywhere, against anyone, because we've never saw him get subdued by it before and thus, is not weak agaist it." argument. Since there's no argument, we shouldn't be arguing. Yet, here we are.
So yeah. There you go. I don't think I can explain any better why the need to compare doujutsu-less versions of Sasuke, Kakashi, and Nagato to explain the difference between being a good ninja, and being a ninja with a doujutsu that makes you good. If my posts are only gonna be misconstrued as a malicious vendetta, then there's no reason to keep posting here.
Taking into account what we've been told, these three things are made aware objectively:
1)Sage of the Sixth Paths, the creator for the basis of all Ninjutsu, possessed the Rinnegan and utilized it to, well, form the natural elements that are in accordance with the ninjutsu used today. (Fire, Water, Wind, Earth, etc.) This in itself suggest that the Rinnegan grants power that the forebearer of all ninjutsu possessed, which in turn would insinuate the power of a 'God'. Because of this, throughout the epoch's of Naruto, it was made very admirable and recognized as the greatest of The Three Dojutsu - As noted by Jiraiya, it was even considered legendary and fictitious because of this.
2)The Rinnegan grants access to powers such as The Sixth Paths and its respective, formidable powers, (Outer, Naraka, Human, Deva, etc.) Banshō Ten'in[Control over Gravity], Chibaku Tensei, and Banbutsu Sozo. Quite obviously the prowess of The Rinnegan is gargantuan and in many respects simply outclasses the Sharingan. This isn't to say the Sharingan is simply weak, but I digress.
3)Before I tell my reasoning for this one, you must initially be aware of its inherent logic. Recall that I am speaking generally on the Sharingan and its respective users. This means that I am not speaking on behalf of EMS's prowess(You can however consider EMS in the case of it simply being 'unlimited Mangekyou'). Why? Because very little, in fact only two even possess the EMS. If were to compare the general specimen of Sharingan to Rinnegan, wouldn't it seem more logical to compare those that at the very least have substantial information on it? EMS is still quite the big conjecture even now, so its silly to sit here and speak as if we as a series know its comparative with the Rinnegan - in some regards, you could claim they are the same thing. I'm merely trying to avoid this ambiguity in my explanation. This also means the 'rock' at the end of this weeks chapter will also be avoided.
Anyways, if we were to make a comparative statement in regards to the Rinnegan, we could see these three categories in which the Rinnegan prevails:
Unlike the Mangekyou, The Rinnegan has no apparent drawbacks in regards to utilizing it. Whilst it takes a beyond ample amount of chakra to even use it, no effects such as blindness are apparent in The Rinnegan. This could be a deciding factor if, say Pein and Itachi were to battle it out. In the final moments, Pein could prevail simply because of Itachi's overuse of the Mangekyou Sharingan. It can come to be a deciding factor in fights.
As noted before, The Rinnegan essentially gives power that the Rikudo Sennin possessed, and not even the formidable Susanoo/Amaterasu can compare to the incredible Banbutsu Sozo or even the control of gravity - in addition, the Rinnegan can simply suck up the Amaterasu flames as noted by the latest fight with Nagato. This leads us to believe most of the Sharingan's prowess can be combated readily before the face of the Rinnegan.
3)The Manga's Portrayal.
Most of us posters here base our decisioning and statements off of the manga, right? If the Manga portrays the Rinnegan to be Godly, Mythical, All-Powerful dojutsu then why wouldn't it be? Why would the forefather of Ninjutsu possess the Rinnegan if it was not the most effective and primitive? Why would it be called the Greatest of the three if it wasn't the greatest of the three? Why would it be considered legendary and fictitious if it was not inconceivably powerful? All of these aspects outweigh the Sharingan.
And even then, if we were to consider all of this, the Mangekyou and Eternal Mangekyou are considered very rare in terms of Sharingan users[And So are the Jutsu - Susano'o, Amaterasu, etc].. If out of 500 Ninjas whom of which possess the Sharingan, only 5 possess the MS, it seems quite logical generally to assume 9/10 times, The Rinnegan cannot be combated by a simple Sharingan user. Scientifically, if one were to claim that the Sharingan>Rinnegan, their results would be considered inconclusive and invalid on that simple basis. Something to Ponder on.
Overall, if we were to take two ninja of the same caliber and pit them together, one with the Rinnegan and the other with the Sharingan, and both combated each other, The one with the Rinnegan would prevail. However, the Rinnegan is not an auto-win if combated with a Sharingan user who can utilize their dojutsu better[however unlikely that may be]. If one can utilize their dojutsu in a manner that prevails over the other, they will win. Generally, however, The Rinnegan prevails.
Anyway, I already gave multiple examples of where Sasuke has fought without even using his Sharingan, showing that he can still be really skilled without it. During Part 1 after a month of training, Sasuke was able to fight Gaara with taijutsu at a better level then Lee was able, all without using his Sharingan, up to the point of forcing Gaara to make use of his absolute shield. And during Part 2, Sasuke showed that he could take out entire groups of fodder and fight roughly even with a sword against Kirabi at first without his Sharingan. So it's actual fact that Sasuke isn't absolutely dependent on his Sharingan to actually fight at a high level. Obviously he wouldn't be able to continue fighting at the top tier like he is without the aid of the Sharingan, but he would still be fighting at a high tier.
I don't get why there's so much debate over if Nagato is stronger or Sasuke/Itachi/Kakashi with or without dojutsu when the actual question in the thread is whether Rinnegan is superior or Sharingan... not whether a specific Rinnegan user is superior to a specific Sharingan user. I think Derpravity summed everything up very nicely as far as the actual topic is concerned. There isn't really a point debating what could've been if Nagato had no Rinnegan or how elite Sasuke or Itachi was before their Sharingans activated. Before Nagato learned how to use his Rinnegan, he managed to kill ninja without even knowing it was him just by having them auto-activate on him. I don't think the same can be said about the Sharingan; maybe mangekyo sharingan, and the eternal mangekyo sharingan is still a mystery as well.
it's already been confirmed EMS evolves into rinnegan. and with rinnegan there no exception of skill that u cannot learn be it kekkei genkai or bloodline limit..
so why is this thread still open????